A detailed critique of Haven & Hearth

[cmensock]

Living peacefully is not difficult, in world 3 I was never attacked and I established an entire village.

And Yeomanry took you 2 days to get? Geeze dude, I got Theft in like 2 hours.

[NaoWhut]

Have you ever played a game like minecraft where
the survival mode is; at night monsters spawn in
the dark and try to kill you, you can easily trap and
kill them from the start.

However, in HnH, that's about what the animals are
like, only if you mess up even the slightest they WILL
kill you. Fortunately, they're not the ones trying to kill
you in this game, no, you are being hunted by thinking
beings that are stronger, smarter, faster, and better
than you. You don't know who will kill you and who will
trade with you generously, what do you do then?

stop being a care bear, kill them and quit your whining.

"That jerk stole all my stuff! i'm gonna go summon him..
oh wait... they removed PvP, all i can do is talk trash to
him."

After you kill someone you'll know why you want PvP to
stay.

[Jackard]

There isn't a "viable means of conflict resolution" when there are (or will be after they grind long enough) essentially unkillable characters. But we've had this conversation before . . . .

What do you have when you remove PvP?

A-haa

[Cypress_z]

Living peacefully is not difficult, in world 3 I was never attacked and I established an entire village.

And Yeomanry took you 2 days to get? Geeze dude, I got Theft in like 2 hours.

I wasn't grinding specifically for it. I was also one of the last in our group to get it. For the large part, I was busy building up carpentry skill and survival, as I never intended to fight anyone. We had other people for that.

Have you ever played a game like minecraft where
the survival mode is; at night monsters spawn in
the dark and try to kill you, you can easily trap and
kill them from the start.

However, in HnH, that's about what the animals are
like, only if you mess up even the slightest they WILL
kill you. Fortunately, they're not the ones trying to kill
you in this game, no, you are being hunted by thinking
beings that are stronger, smarter, faster, and better
than you. You don't know who will kill you and who will
trade with you generously, what do you do then?

stop being a care bear, kill them and quit your whining.

"That jerk stole all my stuff! i'm gonna go summon him..
oh wait... they removed PvP, all i can do is talk trash to
him."

After you kill someone you'll know why you want PvP to
stay.

As I stated, I do not advocate the COMPLETE removal of PVP. Just the removal of Murder on a separate server, or restricting murder to use on those with the scent of a specific crime. You could still knock people out, which was how we were satisfied to deal with thieves. However, it seems the devs have made their opinion on the matter clear. No skin off my back.

As it is, I have no issue with increased difficulty. However, a little bit of time and difference in what you're grinding means the difference between your whole village getting murdered and you being more or less invincible to everyone else. Even ganging people up doesn't seem to help all that much. That's really the core of the issue; some people and groups don't want to have to be full time dedicate warriors, doing nothing but digging soil for LP to boost their combat abilities. The alternative - hybridizing to have some other useful talent, is a deadly alternative, as you cannot survive against people who do nothing but grind for combat skill, rage and murder. If you don't consider pure combat grind for sixteen hours a day to be fun, why should you be forced to do it just to let other people do the stuff you'd rather be doing? It's a massive flaw in this otherwise good game.

I suppose a nice alternative would be to make numbers matter more. A few people against one strong person should still be able to take them out, unless they are VERY strong. I didn't really see that as a viable possibility here. Or perhaps bonuses to combat skill from other noncombat skills. Not as much as direct combat skill grinding, but enough that you won't be afraid to sink some points into something other than combat skills before you hit 200. Some special moves or maneuvers granted by noncombat skills would also be very nice, as it would mean you could hybridize without suffering too much.

[Samsho]

I believe that there should be AT LEAST some sort of newbie protection, yes.

Cypress_Z you seriously shouldn't go replying to all the guys that think that they are edgy if they reply to your posts with videos or stupid posts in general, you'll be wasting a lot of time.

[Cypress_z]

I believe that there should be AT LEAST some sort of newbie protection, yes.

Cypress_Z you seriously shouldn't go replying to all the guys that think that they are edgy if they reply to your posts with videos or stupid posts in general, you'll be wasting a lot of time.

To be perfectly honest, I'm barely replying to them, and mostly just using them to help me think. But you're right.

I guess when you get right down to it, my primary issue with the game is that if you want to start a village, you have to have several people grinding for LP and putting every bit of it into combat skills, as opposed to being able to do anything else, and that isn't very fun.

I've thought it out a bit more, and want to clarify what I'd thought of in my last post. You get passive combat skill bonuses for noncombat skills, say, one point for every ten in a noncombat skill, with the bonuses depending on the type of skill you choose. For instance, unarmed bonuses are gained for taking farming, and melee bonuses are gained for taking carpentry. You could also break down the purchased skills like valor (except the basic ones) and give them as a reward for reaching a certain level in a noncombat skill, or make them available only after you've gotten so many points in a noncombat skill. This means that people who do nothing but grind for combat skill need to have at least some noncombat skills to maximize their combat abilities, and makes it easier for people who are not combat oriented to switch over. However, it doesn't mean the removal of combat skills or PVP, nor negate the effect of putting a lot of points into combat skills. It mostly just helps players who are not creating combat-oriented characters defend themselves a little, and gives people the ability to get LP and be useful to the village by having points in farming or carpentry or something; not just digging or worse, bucket grinding.

What do you all think?

[bitza]

specialization is key. if you had 50 members in your village, at least 10 of them should have been pumping combat and working toward securing the area, while the others worked towards yeoman, farming, carpentry, survival, lawspeaking, whatever else. it's a microcosm of medieval life - there were workers, and there were knights who didn't do the "peasant work" but instead trained with their weapons to defend the village.

the fact that you were steamrolled by people who cranked murder in a few days only shows the grindy nature of the game, and the less than optimal LP system, which is an entirely different subject in itself.

[Telemakhos]

A more pertinent argument is that removing PKing from a server will make griefing worse. If I knew people couldn't kill me I would pave penises and swastikas into their fields and build gateless walls around their cities.

[Kaios]

There isn't a "viable means of conflict resolution" when there are (or will be after they grind long enough) essentially unkillable characters. But we've had this conversation before . . . .

What do you have when you remove PvP?

A-haa

I started from this video and ended up watching some hot girl do workout videos.

[vikingdragons]

Someone on this forum once said this:
PvP, Permadeath, and high investment charaters; just pick two.

Getting rid of PvP and Permadeath ain't gonna happen, and I actually like that (although not the fact that animals can now murder you when at full health, not cool ).
They are working on a replacement for the LP system, which might make characters easier to level without mindless grinding, in which case the high investment characters would be less of an issue, thus probelm fixed. Give it time, and things will eventually balance out.