Money and Trade System

[Junkfist2]

When people know that everybody will accept coins as payment, _that_ is when they become partially 'detached' from their utility as a metal, and become an easily tradeable substitute.

This is a pipe dream that will never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever happen if their utility remains equal to their tradeable value, because people will then smelt them down for their utility. The "kickstart" you're talking about can only happen when a localized community large enough to support a system of currency (Goons, Bros, etc.) can have a secure way for their leadership to mint and regulate their own economy. That way a coin has worth because it's the base utility PLUS the value of a stamp of central authority. It will not happen in hippie commune towns of 3-4-5 people because of the "heyyyyyy we're all friends I'll just give you what I need and you give me what you need" bullshit and because they're naturally insular anyway. Solo players won't do it because they'll just make everything on their own, they think that's the point and fun of the game.

I love the idea of being able to mint your own coins (as I do the idea of branding wine), but they will _only_ differ in value from other coins if they contain more or less actual metal. Sure, you could make some steel coins, stamp them with a 'P', and create an artificial list of goods and how many of these 'P' dollars they are worth, but what the hell for? That is really putting the cart before the horse. Not only would anybody outside your little experiment laugh at you, the actual value and the 'official' value would constantly be at odds for all the different fluctuations that naturally occur in a living market.

They _only_ differ in value if _people agree_ they differ in value, which they can when you mint. They'd basically be bank notes written on coins. Laugh all you want: when a large group of players have a functioning currency operating as an internal medium between trades that can protect itself from outside market fluctuations and tampering, we'll laugh all the way to the bank.

Seriously there are a bunch of reasons a "Sign and Date" function would be useful in the game. Minting is just one of them.

[Laremere]

It will not happen in hippie commune towns of 3-4-5 people because of the "heyyyyyy we're all friends I'll just give you what I need and you give me what you need" bullshit and because they're naturally insular anyway. Solo players won't do it because they'll just make everything on their own, they think that's the point and fun of the game.

First off, several people working together sharing resources can work very well, as proven by Pinevalley, as everyone has the best gear excluding some ranger gear because our silk production was just getting of the ground before we were raided.

Second, the devs have stated quite sternly that they will not have artificial value on money, the only value that is inherent of the metal it is made out of.

Thirdly, solo players actually require coins more. As several people working together can share their specialty, a solo doesn't get that luxury. However if they are say a hunter, and want some steel armor, and they have bear bangers to sell, they could go to one person who wants to buy bear bangers and trade with them for coins, which they can then take to someone who makes steel armor, and with enough coins, could buy the armor.

[sabinati]

or just use the coins themselves to make the armor (assuming steel coins)

[Laremere]

but the hunter may not have the skills to make the armor. This will be especially true when they make skills harder to get.

[Junkfist2]

First off, several people working together sharing resources can work very well, as proven by Pinevalley, as everyone has the best gear excluding some ranger gear because our silk production was just getting of the ground before we were raided.

Second, the devs have stated quite sternly that they will not have artificial value on money, the only value that is inherent of the metal it is made out of.

Thirdly, solo players actually require coins more. As several people working together can share their specialty, a solo doesn't get that luxury. However if they are say a hunter, and want some steel armor, and they have bear bangers to sell, they could go to one person who wants to buy bear bangers and trade with them for coins, which they can then take to someone who makes steel armor, and with enough coins, could buy the armor.

To your first point: Yeah ok great do you and your half-dozen members of a village use coins internally? Ok no idea why you brought that up then moving on.

Second: Yeah ok great do you mean that they won't have "in-game" currency from npc shops? Cool, good, that's dumb. If you mean they absolutely will not even allow a perfectly acceptable mechanic whereby, gasp, a community can mint its own currency or have bank notes or socially-agreed upon worth and authority that can protect itself from outside tampering and manipulation, that's dumb and pigheaded and against emergent gameplay. It even goes against their mission statement.

Having progressed far enough, players will, in time, be able to organize themselves into societies, from simple tribes and villages, progressing through republics, nation states and, ultimately, empires.

You cannot have empires, nation states, republics, even a good city or town without a minted currency for internal use. It's a building block of a greater society to have an agreed upon medium for trade. If a foreign currency were to try to be used in that region, then yes they'd probably only view it as good as the material it's made out of.

Third: THIS HYPOTHETICAL SITUATION WITH THE BEAR BANGERS WILL NOT HAPPEN BECAUSE THIS IS A GAME. Many solo players dooooooooon't caaaaaaaaaaaaare about "money", they're off being independent and playing harvest moon on their farmstead and enjoying creating all their shit on their own. If they came across a bag of coins they'd smelt it down to make a sword to stab foxes because "wee fun I'm getting lp lol I can make a hat from the fox".

[Junkfist2]

but the hunter may not have the skills to make the armor. This will be especially true when they make skills harder to get.

P.S. Here's a serious question for you, assuming coins are only worth the material they're made of:

How many steel coins would steel armor cost?

[Erik_the_Blue]

A point of reference on the "population needed to sustain currency" issue:

Back when I played A Tale in the Desert (during the second telling), player-made paper currency existed but was only ever issued by a few specialty guild shops and never used on a wide scale. There were between 1,500-2,500 unique players each week (including trial accounts, iirc). Granted, ATITD's scrip was significantly harder to produce than H&H's coins, but the technology was easily obtainable by most smaller guilds.

On the other hand, there was a store that issued a form of credit based entirely upon an inverse quantity law. The store was very popular, but all credit was managed by their website, as in they never issued scrip in-game.

[Laremere]

but the hunter may not have the skills to make the armor. This will be especially true when they make skills harder to get.

P.S. Here's a serious question for you, assuming coins are only worth the material they're made of:

How many steel coins would steel armor cost?

Well, slightly more than what steel it requires to produce, due to the maker's cost of making the item and going through with the trade.

You cannot have empires, nation states, republics, even a good city or town without a minted currency for internal use. It's a building block of a greater society to have an agreed upon medium for trade. If a foreign currency were to try to be used in that region, then yes they'd probably only view it as good as the material it's made out of.

Yes you can. You can either accept the fact that I have clearly stated that the devs have clearly stated that it will not happen, or you can continue being ignorant. Your choice, I can't force you.

Third: THIS HYPOTHETICAL SITUATION WITH THE BEAR BANGERS WILL NOT HAPPEN BECAUSE THIS IS A GAME. Many solo players dooooooooon't caaaaaaaaaaaaare about "money", they're off being independent and playing harvest moon on their farmstead and enjoying creating all their shit on their own. If they came across a bag of coins they'd smelt it down to make a sword to stab foxes because "wee fun I'm getting lp lol I can make a hat from the fox".

Wrong. If they want better gear that they can't make/get on their own, it is very probable that they will pay another to do it. Just look at the apples for oranges forum. It is just that not enough people are using coins currently.

[Junkfist2]

Oh thank god for a moment there I thought I wasn't laying out my argument well or something, now I see it's just Laremere's really, really dumb.

Well, slightly more than what steel it requires to produce, due to the maker's cost of making the item and going through with the trade.

You're dumb. The player would make it themselves. There's no "cost" to make the item, there's *gain*. It takes a few seconds and you get large amounts of lp from it. Then they get enough steel back to make another one. Oh no the strenuous labour of getting your materials back for nothing.

Yes you can. You can either accept the fact that I have clearly stated that the devs have clearly stated that it will not happen, or you can continue being ignorant. Your choice, I can't force you.

That what won't happen? That artificial value won't happen? If you mint a coin there is absolutely no "artificial" value like there would be with an NPC market. None. The added "value" on top of the material the coin is made of comes from the authority established by a secured availability to buy and sell in a stable, regulated, localized economy. That's INCREDIBLY valuable, and just because it's socially constructed doesn't make it any more "artificial" or any less valuable.

If that socially constructed value were to drop below what the material itself is made out of (i.e. if it were just a 1/99th of a bar, which, by the way, any coin currently is) then people would just melt the things down into their metals and utilize them. Absolutely no harm done.

You see, Laremere, It's like the value of your argument compared to mine. On its own yours is completely worthless, specious, devoid of any merit of debate. However because you're appealing to an official authority on the matter, Jorb and Loftar, you imagine it has a greater value than any reasoned argument presented against it, even when the suggested mechanic is perfectly harmless if it weren't to bear fruit and incredibly useful were it to.

Wrong. If they want better gear that they can't make/get on their own, it is very probable that they will pay another to do it. Just look at the apples for oranges forum. It is just that not enough people are using coins currently.

"Guys guys everything's fine with currency it's just that practically nobody uses coins for some reason, that's the only problem with currency."

Good lord.

[Jackard]

Good news on coins, guys:

you know, you wouldn't really need much to make coins more useful

just make it so you can stack more than one bar's worth into a single inventory slot, and they become more convenient than carrying around the bar itself. instead of 100, max stack of 1000 coins.

More likely we'll implement purses, with inventories of their own, but the net effect should be the same.