Races

[Onionfighter]

Another thing that I have begun thinking about lately is the possibility to have crafting recipes come not automatically through skills as it is now, but rather that they are learned on an individual basis; preferably through contextual quests or similar actions. Apart from making each individual recipe more meaningful to a player, if players can then also teach each others the recipes they know, it will likely mean that some modes of crafting will be localized to certain player settlements and so on. The same thing would go for attacks/buildings/&c. It is still an early idea, though.

That could actually create wandering swordsmen.

I like the idea of your region affecting your character.

[CG62]

[Specialization/teaching]

Skill books that give you an increase in that particular skill directly proportional to your INT, and that take several days/weeks to read?

I'm TOTALLY not borrowing anything from Mount & Blade.

[niltrias]

Niltrias' idea is not entirely unconvincing indeed, but I think I must come out in opposition to it. One thing I like very much about Haven is that you make no choices whatsoever during character creation (except gender, which is purely cosmetical). I would rather the choices come upon you afterwards while actually playing the game. Of course, it can be argued that there are far too few such choices currently, seeing how specialization is almost completely nonexistent, but I hope that we can be able to change that.

Loftar, this is the third "Not entirely unconvincing" idea I have had so far. I dont know if I should feel overjoyed or saddened by this.

Seriously, though, that is a good point you make about it. How about this -
(And no, I have not entirely thought this one out, but I think there is a glimmer of a good idea in here somewhere.)

Since spawn points are going to be tied to Chapterstones, and chapterstones to civ points, what it down the line, when we can link villages together to found nations and the like, the leader of a nation could create a "starter pack" called, maybe, an apprenticeship, that would award about 500lp (or the equivalent, if there is no lp at that time) worth of skills, and maybe a single personal belief change. This would be a one-shot/character deal, of course. They could be named, although I could see how this might cause problems.

Basically, the idea would be that a nation could give its starting players enough skills to bounce over that first terrible grindy point, along with giving it some character. This nation might have ranks of noob fishermen lining the banks, while that nation might have a horde of newb farmers churning out hemp. Of course, the player is under no obligation to take the apprentice ship, they could just wander off and do whatever they like. Or they could take it and use the skills to level up the abilities they are actually interested in. Just something to give starting players a bit to work with, and to add flavor to the various different groups.

Fire Away!

[loftar]

I must say that, with regard to overcoming the noob grind, I think the right way to go is to make the early game more exciting -- not just jumping past it. ;)

With regard to adding flavor to groups, I think that would come automatically if I can get some good version of specialization and especially learning from other characters implemented. That would automatically propagate (and evolve) the flavor created by previous events in each group. I think that the more that can be accomplished by player action, the better.

It is worth noting, that if we really can get it to the point where there are climate zones, each with their own localized resources and (consequently) crafts, that would create a situation which comes close to your initial suggestion, only that each character would still start out in a "blank" state -- the area in which he chooses (or happens) to start in would form his path of development in the way encouraged by the resources in the area (while he would, of course, also be free to ignore it and work against the elements), so you may see it not as a replacement of your "not entirely unconvincing" suggestion, but rather a specific implementation of it. ;)

[Jackard]

Another thing that I have begun thinking about lately is the possibility to have crafting recipes come not automatically through skills as it is now, but rather that they are learned on an individual basis; preferably through contextual quests or similar actions. Apart from making each individual recipe more meaningful to a player, if players can then also teach each others the recipes they know, it will likely mean that some modes of crafting will be localized to certain player settlements and so on. The same thing would go for attacks/buildings/&c. It is still an early idea, though.

Hmm. Does this mean you are going to continue making even more recipes that require specific materials?

[Jfloyd]

[Specialization/teaching]

Skill books that give you an increase in that particular skill directly proportional to your INT, and that take several days/weeks to read?

I'm TOTALLY not borrowing anything from Mount & Blade.

Ah but Mount and Blade is a fantastic game.
Books should be makeable.
Someone would have to learn how to write/develop language. Teach someone that language so they can read books written in it, and they can read/write in that.
It should be increasingly harder to learn another language, and books should take quite a bit of effort to make so skills are shit-stormed through books.
The skill that you're teaching should be selectable from a list that you know, and can only be taught as well as you know it (for if and when skills are re-done)
Only once someone discovers how to use a press, could they be made quicker. So all in all, quick teaching of skills would be effective, but would take a LONG
time to master.
Another quick note to that. Scrolls should be useable as well to teach, but they would take longer, and more of them to get the point across, with less effective
comprehension of the material. I.E. No visual aid.

[niltrias]

I must say that, with regard to overcoming the noob grind, I think the right way to go is to make the early game more exciting -- not just jumping past it.

With regard to adding flavor to groups, I think that would come automatically if I can get some good version of specialization and especially learning from other characters implemented. That would automatically propagate (and evolve) the flavor created by previous events in each group. I think that the more that can be accomplished by player action, the better.

It is worth noting, that if we really can get it to the point where there are climate zones, each with their own localized resources and (consequently) crafts, that would create a situation which comes close to your initial suggestion, only that each character would still start out in a "blank" state -- the area in which he chooses (or happens) to start in would form his path of development in the way encouraged by the resources in the area (while he would, of course, also be free to ignore it and work against the elements), so you may see it not as a replacement of your "not entirely unconvincing" suggestion, but rather a specific implementation of it.

Good points.
The one thing I see a slight problem with here is this: How will you be able to maintain a northern European feel while having these different resources cause different paths of development?
Also, I really like the idea of characters being able to teach other characters. No idea how you could implement that, but windblades aside, you guys have never failed to impress me yet.

[loftar]

Hmm. Does this mean you are going to continue making even more recipes that require specific materials?

If you are not convinced by that, I see your point. I'm not entirely sure how to resolve that conflict yet. It can be argued that if crafting recipes are learned on an individual basis, it doesn't even hurt as much that they are specific in the ingredients, since learning to craft e.g. stone and bone arrows would be two different events, rather than coming at once from one skill as they do now. The opposite can be argued as well, though. Like I said, it's an early thought.

The one thing I see a slight problem with here is this: How will you be able to maintain a northern European feel while having these different resources cause different paths of development?

I don't think that necessarily needs to be a problem; just consider the difference in climate (and thence available resources) between Schwarzwald region of Germany, the Alps, the British isles, northern Scandinavia and the Russian Taiga. It is not obvious what climates should be manifest ingame and how to meaningfully differentiate them in terms of gameplay, of course, but it doesn't seem that problematic.

[Jackard]

Hmm. Does this mean you are going to continue making even more recipes that require specific materials?

If you are not convinced by that, I see your point. I'm not entirely sure how to resolve that conflict yet. It can be argued that if crafting recipes are learned on an individual basis, it doesn't even hurt as much that they are specific in the ingredients, since learning to craft e.g. stone and bone arrows would be two different events, rather than coming at once from one skill as they do now. The opposite can be argued as well, though. Like I said, it's an early thought.

The opposite has been argued. Reviving an old thread, but there were some changes made since the last time you commented on it: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=1509

[loftar]

The opposite has been argued.

Oh yes, well aware. :) I just reconfirmed that the argument still is valid. I related specifically to that thread by presenting the argument that the individual learning of recipes in some (but far from all) aspects makes it obsolete.