Royal Mint

Thoughts on the further development of Haven & Hearth? Feel free to opine!

Re: Royal Mint

Postby jorb » Thu Jul 22, 2010 6:34 am

Winterbrass wrote:There are two main problems with a gold-based currency. One, when manufacturing raw elements becomes possible through the use of nanotechnology


When you find the philosopher's stone then gold would at worst become as useless as a fiat currency currently is and always will be, correct. Your point?

Winterbrass wrote:Two, when gold becomes undesirable (unused in jewellry or electronics due to finding a 'better' material) or unnecessary (see first point), it will lose all of its value


When gold is no longer used in jewelery? When hell freezes over, you mean?

At either of these points, I'd rather take my fiat currency, thanks.


Fine, and until then we'll use a gold standard. Good to see that we all agree.

I am not trying to deny that an act of God (The equivalent of what you are talking about) could make gold completely worthless. The point is that -- again, if there were no "legal tender laws" -- the free market would in that case in a matter of seconds identify the best available substitute to fill that void, and begin using it.

Also please note that fiat currency does not win the discussion per default. There is not a single argument here *in favor of* using a fiat currency.
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Re: Royal Mint

Postby Zamte » Thu Jul 22, 2010 7:29 am

Given the technology to disassemble and reassemble atomic particles to form the elements you want, everything would become worthless. Oxygen, hydrogen, nitrogen, and all the other elements readily available in the world suddenly become "gold waiting to happen". Such a technology will likely ruin any sort of economy we have if it's ever spread wide enough to be useful. That's kind of a silly point to make.

The problem this game has largely with a currency of any kind is quality. As nice as it is for other things, it totally prevents any sort of standard unless some quality free item is used. This would work with gold, but gold is far too rare as it stands currently to be used. I'd love to use it, but it'd never work. There are more people looking for gold jewelry and helmets to ever supply them all. Using other types of metal has no standardization, which means the worth of otherwise identical coins varies wildly. I suppose when it comes to iron, most of it's uses cause quality to be irrelevant, but that also means it's not as useful.
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Re: Royal Mint

Postby loftar » Thu Jul 22, 2010 10:11 am

Interestingly enough, Zamte, you are wrong from both an economical and technological view.

Technologically, what you refer to as "nano-technology" is the ability to manipulate atoms and molecular patterns*. Subatomic manipulation in any volume is far beyond what we are capable of currently. What you speak of is purely in the realm of science fiction for the foreseeable future.

But more importantly, economically, all that really matters is that there is still scarcity. Economics is, basically, the science of scarcity. As long as there are things that are scarce, some of those will serve well as media of exchange, and in the absence of legal tender laws, the free market will soon adapt to find the most suitable one (as it always has in the past). It doesn't have to be rare metals, you know. In an imaginary world where there are no things that are scarce, not only would money be superfluous, but so would also all kinds of human action, intelligence and the human mind as such. The disappearance of all kinds of scarcity will, of course, never happen in the real world. Despite what Marx would have you think.

* Manipulation on the electrodynamical level, if you will, of matter -- which is not only many orders of magnitude away from manipulation on the chromodynamical level of which you speak (both in terms of size and in terms of energy), but qualitatively different entirely. Even then, however, the current state of nanotechnology is still far from the kind of "arbitrary" or "universal" manipulation that you propound.
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Re: Royal Mint

Postby Zamte » Thu Jul 22, 2010 12:25 pm

That's what I was saying. Winterbrass was the one who came up with the idea to use the future potential for what amounts to alchemy as a reason why gold is a bad form of security. I just said that even if it ever did come about, it'd make everything of equal worth, as everything would be the same as everything else; a potential. Thus it's a silly thing to worry about.

As for currency, I understand how it works, though I'm definitely not an economist. I don't understand how something being scarce makes it valuable though, or worthy of being a currency. People will collect plenty of strange rare things, but collecting is a far cry from use as a currency. If mud were rare, it'd still be mud. People might try to collect it, but you can't make things from it, or use it for anything worthwhile to use. Furthermore, as a game, we have a special case here. It's unlikely you're going to make any item which is there just to be a stand in for currency, as the point of additions to the game are to be involved in mechanics, be they new or old mechanics, and used in some way. Everything we get is useful to some extent. Thus we need to find an item which is scarce enough to be valuable, but also common enough to be able to be used across the playerbase. I've obviously not got access to the numbers or formula you do, so I can't say for sure. Is gold really present enough to cover even the few hundred players we have now as a real currency? Let alone the thousands this game will likely eventually see? Chances are even if gold (in the form of nuggets, bars, or coins) were used as a currency, much of it would be taken out of circulation as newer players got it and decided it's more useful to them as rings, helmets, or other equipment.

I personally don't even care to see a currency. If it happens, great. Trading will be made easier for it. Otherwise though it's no major loss. I do still think quality will make it hard, as it makes it very hard to create any sort of standard. We could choose to use lower quality whatever for it, but this is counter intuitive to the general game concept. For instance, unless I purposefully equip a lower quality saw, or use terrible soil and terrible tree pots to get sub-q10 trees, the lowest metals I can make are q64. Any item which comes to be used as a currency would be greatly aided by either having no quality, or having one which is largely irrelevant.
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Re: Royal Mint

Postby DatOneGuy » Thu Jul 22, 2010 12:35 pm

Actually, quite a few years ago a female scientist (alchemist as some may say) was able to turn lead into gold.

However, the price to produce a single gram far outweighted it's worth, so no one has bothered sense and probably won't until a better method is found...

...I must be missing something in not reading the textwalls because this doesn't seem too relevant to HnH and coins though...
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Re: Royal Mint

Postby Potjeh » Thu Jul 22, 2010 1:07 pm

OK, since you guys are ideologically opposed to me making my own currency that's unreproducible by other players, what if I call it scrip? Scrip has been widely used historically and is widely used today (gift certificates), it's not issued and controlled by the government which you hate so, and is covered by goods/services it can be exchanged for so it's not fiat.

The issue here is that I have a vendor stall selling farm products, and a barter stall buying herbs. Obviously, I want to trade my farm products for herbs. But I have no idea what herbs and in what numbers my customer has to trade. A partial solution is to set up dozens of barter tables that cover every possible combination of an individual farm product and herb. I think it's pretty damn obvious why this is a horrible way to set up automated trade. A not so obvious problem is that my customer may have 2 chants and 2 nettles, and I'm selling chicken chorizos that cost 3 chants or 3 nettles. He obviously has enough goods to buy that chorizo, but he can't do it. All these problems disappear when I introduce scrip as a transitory step, ie replace goods->goods trade with goods->scrip->goods. Now the customer can exchange his nettles and chants for 4 units of PotScrip(TM), and then buy the chorizo with these 4 units. Sure, I can just use current coins for scrip, but that means that someone with a mint can trade his coins for my chorizo. And I don't want any metal, I just want goddamn nettles and chants! So yeah, it can't work at all if anyone can make my scrip.

And if I decide to partner up with some more traders, and we all use one common scrip, what's so wrong about it? It helps all of us, since now the customer has a better selection of goods he can get for his own goods. As long as we're responsible about putting scrip into circulation (ie we cover every piece with goods in our stalls) everything should be gravy. If we do overprint it, everyone will soon lose faith in the scrip and we will just ruin ourselves with bad planning, and reaping both fruit and consequences of your own choices makes for a good gameplay. We may even decide to have a reasonable inflation, so as to discourage people from taking our scrip out of circulation and thus reducing our liquidity (remember, we're being responsible and covering every piece of scrip with goods). Sure, it's stealth taxes, but if this group of traders that I share my scrip with is my village, we kinda deserve it. The Buyan market didn't build itself, it doesn't police itself, and it sure as hell doesn't repair itself (you wouldn't believe how walls eat bricks). So yeah, I think we're entitled to something for providing a safe trading environment.

In conclusion, stop forcing your own political beliefs onto the playerbase, and let us make our own god damned policies!
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Re: Royal Mint

Postby exewu » Thu Jul 22, 2010 1:17 pm

A few mistakes in the above walls of text:

gouvernement doesn't set the moneysupply. Thecentral banks do. In the EU the ECB only has one mission, to keep inflation stable. In the US (FED) they also look at the economic growth. But again, gouvernment can't print money.

When the price of bread halves the baskets that are used to measure wealth will reflect this and there won't be any inflation, so the man isn't out there too steal your goddamn bread. They have taxes for that.
In fact thiz has been happening for decades now. Your average household only spends about 13% of their income on food and double that on clothes. Inflation is more affected by wage rises. If everyone's wages go up by 10% without massive gains in productivity then inflation wil rise soon.

Fiat (never heard this term before) money is backed by 'i owe you'-s. The central bank can ONLY 'print' money by buying something off of the market. Usually this is government bonds and somethimes company obligations. So yes, every penny you have in your pocket is backed by the national bank's stock of debt letters, which are in turn backed by the real economy (in the form of future taxes for gouvernment bonds or as future profits for companies).
Now viral money, that's a different case, that's backed by the banks, partially. Which is why a run on the banks is so dangerous.

So in conclusion a gold standard is exactly the same as a fiat currency. Bretton woods wasn't solely a gold standard though, it also linked all the currencies together, which is a stupid thing to do if you don't have a joint economical strategy.
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Re: Royal Mint

Postby jorb » Thu Jul 22, 2010 2:58 pm

Potjeh wrote:I'd say that a country's granary is a much better measure of it's real wealth than it's treasury. The food supply determines how large a population the country can support. Rate of production of real wealth is proportionate to the size of workforce, which is proportionate to the size of population. Effectiveness of food production also determines how many craftsmen, artists, philosophers, doctors and most importantly soldiers the country can support. With good enough motivation, you can have an army that fights without pay, but you can't have an army that fights without food. Sure, you could use gold to hire mercenaries, but if you don't have an army of your own they may find it easier to just take all your gold rather than earn some of it (I'm sure there's plenty of examples of condottieri doing this in Renaissance Italy). You can buy food for gold in peacetime, but making yourself reliant on food imports makes you susceptible to blockades and sieges, and someone will soon capitalize on that susceptibility. Even if it doesn't happen, you're at the mercy of your trade partners, who can blackmail you into anything with threats of embargo.

Of course, this all refers to a pre-industrial world. In a modern world, the things are quite similar, but food has been mostly replaced with energy, primarily oil. Most countries today try to be energy independent as much as they can. For an example of what happens when they're not, see the gas crisis in Europe. All the gold bars in Germany couldn't heat the apartments when the valves got shut.


A man with no bread in his cupboards but 100k in the bank is thus poorer than a bum with a hotdog. After all, the supply of food determines how many philosophers, craftsmen and artists the bum can support. I trust that you see that this is simply not the case. The point of having a currency is that it is exchangeable for the widest variety of general goods, and thus a liquidity that can be used to cover many potential situations that arise. Grain is useless if you need ammunition, and countries -- like people -- bank on the fact that currency is easier to exchange for most anything than is grain. Naturally many countries (and people, and companies) have strategic reserves of critical goods as well, but they have those to cover the eventuality of a break down in their ability to trade, which can certainly happen in the event of war, a natural disaster or whatever. You can naturally seek to store wealth in many forms (stocks, bonds, or, yes, even grain). The divide between a barter economy and a monetarized economy is not a hermetically sealed one . Sometimes barter between goods can be equally effective, and currency is really just a means of making barter simpler by allowing for higher resolution and generality in terms of exchange in a relatively neutral medium.

As for inflation, it's a *good* thing if it's moderate. People need incentive to spend or invest their money, because taking capital out of circulation is a cardinal sin against the national economy, and hurts everyone who participates in it. Having stockpiled money gain value over time is a horrible idea, because it would encourage people to put it in their socks, which would further raise money's value and start a vicious circle that kills liquidity in the national economy. Money kept in banks is different, because banks invest that money via loans, which help growth of total wealth by enabling people to start new businesses.


This is a common expression of the theories expounded by JM Keynes, who in my personal estimate is one of the greatest economical charlatans of the 20th century. Money saved is not a threat to the national economy, but quite the contrary. The crucial point that you miss here is the point from time preference. Money I save in the mattress is simply deferred spending that I will -- at some point or another -- spend. From your own personal perspective you should be able to see how it makes economical senses for a person to save money (To be able to afford a house, to cover an unexpected eventuality, to X, Y or Z). Money in my mattress is just as invested as is money in the bank, I have it on hold until I need to use it, quite simply. I have thus deferred some of my own present spending in favor spending at a latter date. The stored wealth of others is not a threat to you, and believing that it is is a breeding ground for bad policy.

The beauty of money saved "in the mattress" is precisely that it is not invested in the formal sense that you are thinking about. That means that my personal wealth is not at the mercy of some snooty banker fresh out of business school and the investments he decides should be the target of my savings. A sin against the national economy that I would like to decide for myself where -- if anywhere -- my money should be invested? I am sorry, Comrade, I wasn't aware.

And yeah, it's stealth taxes, so what? Infrastructure, defence, public services, they all take money. If the government didn't get money through this stealth tax, it'd just raise regular taxes. Higher regular taxes are worse for business than moderate inflation.


Is there anything else you think the government should be doing bei Nacht und Nebel, rather than openly and admittedly? Taxation is an attack on the personal sphere of an individual, and if the government is to not become repressive or totalitarian, it should not conduct its business without openly informing the individual of that. The hidden nature of this tax deprives the individual the means of making an informed decision concerning his country's political future at the ballot box, and I actually fail to see how you can at all defend or prefer that to open taxation. If you take money to use for public purposes you should be clear about where that money is going, how it is being spent and how much is being taken. Anything else is just despotism, arbitrariness and the end of the rule of law. Hidden taxation denies the individual the ability to have the taxes tried before a court of law.

The bottomline is that modern economy is a lot more efficient than the medieval economy, precisely because of fiat money. The cases where overprinting of money caused spread of poverty are notable exceptions, and they mostly have other reasons behind them. Weimar Republic, for example, did have a crazy rate of inflation and it's people were driven into poverty. But the real cause of this poverty wasn't printing of money, it was the oppressive Versailles treaty. When you have to give a significant portion of your production to other countries, your people will be poorer. There's simply less goods to go around, no matter if you use gold standard or fiat money.


Modern economy is certainly more efficient in many senses than many historical economies -- money is easier to transfer, if nothing else -- but that is in spite of fiat money, not because of it. The greatest period of economic development in Europe is most likely the 19th century, throughout which most all European countries employed a gold standard. The fundamental problem caused by inflation is of course the economical boom-bust cycle, which is not an inherent phenomenon of a free market, but a problem created by the arbitrary inflation of the money supply.

I certainly agree with you on your estimate of the Versailles treaty.
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Re: Royal Mint

Postby jorb » Thu Jul 22, 2010 3:13 pm

Potjeh wrote:OK, since you guys are ideologically opposed to me making my own currency that's unreproducible by other players


Oh no, not at all. I think we have even stated openly that we have discussed the ability to produce wax seals and stamps and whatnot. The point is not that you should not for ideological reasons be able to mark your goods, be it coins or something else. Of course not.

Scrip has been widely used historically and is widely used today (gift certificates), it's not issued and controlled by the government which you hate so, and is covered by goods/services it can be exchanged for so it's not fiat.


I would have no problem with you issuing a fiat currency in Haven, and I have no problem what so ever with you setting up the proposed little scheme, I can see why you would want to, and I agree that it would be cool if the game allowed for it. :)

In conclusion, stop forcing your own political beliefs onto the playerbase, and let us make our own god damned policies!


This is not what this is about, Potjeh. In a sense this game is of course built around our political philosophy, and hopefully you can learn something about our political philosophy from observing it, but the goal is not primarily to convince you that Austrian economics is the shit. I am not going to force you to use gold as a means to exchange in Haven (nor would I do that IRL). I want you to have the greatest personal freedom possible in Haven (as I do IRL). I did not like it about the vending stands -- for example -- that they gave the coins an unfair advantage over other trade goods, and I am glad that we now have the barter stands.

What I am arguing against here is legal tender laws IRL. (I argue in favor of a gold standard simply because I personally think that it would be the best currency standard if such were allowed, not because I give much of a hoot about what you use. You can use birthday cards for all I care.) You obviously do not want them in Haven -- as you have correctly identified that they are an encroachment on your personal freedom -- but for some reason you insist that the government IRL should be going in the exact opposite direction. Also, don't use the word force carelessly. You are not forced to play this game if you do not want to, and we are allowed to do whatever we want with it.
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Re: Royal Mint

Postby loftar » Thu Jul 22, 2010 3:46 pm

Zamte wrote:That's what I was saying. Winterbrass was the one who came up with the idea to use the future potential for what amounts to alchemy as a reason why gold is a bad form of security.

Oh, would you look at that. It seems I messed up my forum reading. :)
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