Money and Trade System

[Yolan]

When people know that everybody will accept coins as payment, _that_ is when they become partially 'detached' from their utility as a metal, and become an easily tradeable substitute.

This is a pipe dream that will never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever happen if their utility remains equal to their tradeable value, because people will then smelt them down for their utility.

It is _because_ people know that coins can be smelted down that they maintain their value, and hence are willing to use them for trade. Inflation/deflation will occur depending on how much is in circulation. People will always be melting some down, and creating more. Note that I say 'detached from their utility as a metal, not detached from their value.

You might rather trade a bar of steel instead of 100 steel coins, but what if you want to buy something that is worth a lot less than a bar of steel? That is when coins become useful as currency. Moreover, envision the implementation of gold as a very useful+rare=valuable metal. A gold bar might conceivably be valued so much that a single coin would be worth a bar of steel. People would use those coins to trade, because they _know_ that there is always going to be demand for them, _because_ people will be melting them down.

[Junkfist2]

It is _because_ people know that coins can be smelted down that they maintain their value, and hence are willing to use them for trade. Inflation/deflation will occur depending on how much is in circulation. People will always be melting some down, and creating more. Note that I say 'detached from their utility as a metal, not detached from their value.

Yolan, this hasn't happened. There is no reason to suppose it will happen. You will never see enough of a demand for coins to outweigh the demand for their utility as a metal with this game, as the game is so heavily grounded in production. The only chance there is for the actual widespread use of a currency is when the value of a minted coin exceeds in some degree the value of its utility...not by artificial means, but by pockets of social agreement and a mode of verification.

This kind of social experiment can only can happen in the game when its production and distribution can be regulated by a localized, centralized authority in a community that can protect it from external forces.

You might rather trade a bar of steel instead of 100 steel coins, but what if you want to buy something that is worth a lot less than a bar of steel? That is when coins become useful as currency. Moreover, envision the implementation of gold as a very useful+rare=valuable metal. A gold bar might conceivably be valued so much that a single coin would be worth a bar of steel. People would use those coins to trade, because they _know_ that there is always going to be demand for them, _because_ people will be melting them down.

Well, if I wanted to *trade* for something a lot less than a bar of steel I'd give them a bar of wrought or a bar of cast iron, honestly. No need to ruin any of them by pounding them into 99 little discs of the material that I can't readily reassemble back into a bar. I say trade because none of this so far changes the fact that their value remains entirely as a trade good. That's not a currency, that's a piece of metal. There is absolutely no "buying" or "selling" happening here, it's just bartering with a resource. It is and will be the same with flax, or curds, or silk, or iron, or wrought, or steel, or gold, or adamantium, or whatever: utility will trump and erase any attempted detachment 1/100ths of a bar would ostensibly have as "coins".

The difference between bartering and buying/selling being that with resources there will *not* always be demand. Someone will always be able to say "I do not want any more of this item/material/substance". They will never, or at least very very verrry rarely say "I do not want any more money".

Minting is what turns small bits of disc shaped metal into coins. And as these coins could very well turn back into pieces of metal again were the value of the promised availability of quick exchange to vanish into nothing. I honestly don't see what the argument against or the danger of a small group attempting this experiment with a "Coinpress Signature Mechanic" could be.

[Jackard]

I just hope that if the Signature mechanic goes in, it can be used on any object - not only coins or parchment.

There are so many uses - like the master smith signing his works, since item quality has been confirmed as a feature.

[theTrav]

I assume that coins will become more useful as time goes on and there are more and more things that can be produced. I don't intend on having the infrastructure available to make everything. Maybe it'd be handy to have a common medium of exchange, so when I want some cheese, and the cheese maker wants some bear meat, and the bear meat guy wants some silk, and the silk guy wants some carrot cakes and I have some carrot cakes, I can just deal directly with the cheese maker rather than co-ordinating all these different guys.

Maybe that won't happen, but I think it's probably the most likely way coins will become worth while (that and of course metal becoming vastly less available).


Also, I think it would be valid to sell old worn armor for a value in bars and coins that is less than the cost of creating a shiny new piece of armor... Only problem being that most people don't care to haggle the price into the coinage level, they just round into bars.

[Junkfist2]

I just hope that if the Signature mechanic goes in, it can be used on any object - not only coins or parchment.

There are so many uses - like the master smith signing his works, since item quality has been confirmed as a feature.

Yeah that's also what I'm not getting with some of the posts here.

A Signature Mechanic is awesome.
A Signature Mechanic could be used for many things.
A Signature Mechanic could be used with a coinpress for minting.

It does absolutely nothing but could just let people name a type of coin and show who made it, the town he belongs to, the date it was made, etc..

But for some reason people feel like this should be something to be argued against. Can someone explain this?

[Erik_the_Blue]

<devil's advocate>

More load on the server? There'd have to be restrictions on this otherwise we'd potentially have someone producing dried hides with 999 character long signatures en masse. Otherwise, it is, indeed, an awesome mechanic, especially for sandbox games since it's just another tool for the players to find uses for.

[Jackard]

More load on the server?

hahaha yeah that's a good one, i laughed

[Delamore]

<devil's advocate>

More load on the server? There'd have to be restrictions on this otherwise we'd potentially have someone producing dried hides with 999 character long signatures en masse. Otherwise, it is, indeed, an awesome mechanic, especially for sandbox games since it's just another tool for the players to find uses for.

Uh, do you really think the devs are stupid enough to miss something like this?
Also coin mints that can sign coins should take alot more to produce, and be limited to 4 characters and only one of each name can exist at a time.
So you'd have GOON currency, BN, PINE, LAKE, BRO, FP every name fits under 4 characters very well.

[Potjeh]

Actually, our currency would be TRTL, in honour of dwarfbucks

But anyway, it's strange for me to hear that currency is completely unused. I regularly deal in coins and bars, which are essentially stacks of 100 coins. I always accept those, even when I have no need for iron, because I know I can always exchange them for goods I need. Am I the only one that does this?

[kobnach]

So you'd have GOON currency, BN, PINE, LAKE, BRO, FP every name fits under 4 characters very well.

Completely irrelevant to the thread at hand - but what is FP? I keep seeing it listed as a prominent town, but the full name doesn't come to mind.