Deterring murderers

[minck1]

Why are all the best town building/crafting games also the worst (or best if you like) pvp griefer paradises? UO, Shadowbane, Darkfall all heavy PVP with severe penalties for losing. The only decent crafting game I have played without pvp was Horizons and if they opened a fresh new server I'd go back. It's kind of pointless now with people having multiple 100 level toons.

[Cookie]

"The problem" is the thing. So far as the Russian noobs are concerned there is indeed a problem. But I'm not at all sure the devs know what you mean or agree with you when you say there is a problem. They told you this was a game with pvp, right? They told you you could be permakilled? So where is the problem...?

Now, please don't think I am trying to tromp you or deny that there IS a problem. What I am suggesting is that until you can define the problem in a way that people see the game flaw the way you do, they are going to simply think that anyone who has a problem with the current player killer system is a whiner and ripe for pvp harvesting.

I see a few factors. For example the WV type of player is competitive to the point of taking any advantage they can possibly spot. This means using macros, not reporting bugs, not playing "fair" to use a term they would probably find killingly funny. This means that in the normal way of things in a game of this type the WV type players are going to end up with more power. They can use all the strategies the "nice" players use, and then all the "unfair" strategies on top of that.

Hiding is not a solution to the power imbalance. You need to have access to all the good resources to get powerful, and that requires being visible. You're not going to get powerful in hiding. You may do damn well if you are lucky enough to find say q98 clay and sit on it secretly grinding your way up, but that still means by staying out of the marketplace you can't working cooperatively with the other players and combine your skills and knowledge. The WV type players do this -they are very active in the marketplace.

I don't think a bigger player base would lead to a faction strong enough to oppose the WV type of player. I think the way the game is designed only unfair behavior works in pvp in this game, killing and hurting people when they are defenseless, so even if there are many more players who want to play "fair" in the long run what happens is they get eliminated while the WV type of players do not. I could be wrong of course. We'll know in a few months.

I don't know what the solution is, but I think it's more than just tinkering with the system of leaving murder scents. The only direction I can see to work with is making fair play less dangerous. How would the game dynamic change if the ordinary result of combat was two players too wounded to continue and both of them with a significant long term reduction in combat stats? Say for example you lost strength and constitution when you were hit in a fight, and had to get it back the same way you got it in the first place?

I don't know what the problem is either. I can't define it in terms other my personal preference for how much malignant behavior is allowed and encouraged. And of course everyone in the game has a personal preference on that point. I want... I don't want... I like... doesn't carry much weight.

[minck1]

The only current problem in the defined game of pvp with permadeath is that it is too easy to get an large edge on 75% of the population, maybe even 90%. (Easy might be an oversimplification, but it is possible with time or cheating).

People in this thread are more hoping that because of that imbalance, they can convince the dev's to change the definition.

[Cookie]

Do the Wayneville type of players agree with you that this is a problem?

I do, but I am concerned that it is still a question of our preferences vs. their preferences.

[Seizure]

Do the Wayneville type of players agree with you that this is a problem?

I do, but I am concerned that it is still a question of our preferences vs. their preferences.

I think the reason nobody did anything against WV is quite simple... Simple, and elegant.

It was essentially all because of WV's image. The whole map WV kept on getting a reputation of someone you never want to fuck with, because they were so effective at destruction. WV had to have uber chars because how else would they be so effective at it? WV had to grind 24/7, because nobody could have stats like that otherwise! The one attack on WV did no real damage, and was recovered from swifty...

The lies, slowly tangled into the truth. Eventually WV became a godlike entity that nobody dared oppose, because the examples of their work had been shown time and time again. People convinced themselves that every member of WV had all their stats and skills over 200, and that even being looked at by a member would cause your head to explode from the sheer awesomeness.

Why was WV never taken down? Good PR, combined with extreme paranoia, sprinkled with shows of strength and woven slowly with lies. A powerful formula, powerful and effective.

If a group of decently skilled players attacked WV at its weakest (which could have easily been found out from watching us in the IRC, and taking note of when known WVers were gone) the town could have easily been steam rolled, the highest skilled players who left scents summoned and killed.

Peoples fear kept them from making a move, and their paranoia kept them from gathering together to attack. Its your fault WV was allowed to grow so strong, you were silly enough to let WV grow and grow, and never bothered to stop them.

The games system was designed to regulate itself by allowing skills and stats to be lost through death... Yet it was never done, so the stats kept on getting higher and the Q of items kept on growing along with it...

[Jackard]

Xanadu cant defend Codexia tonight

[Cookie]

I don't think anyone was interested in taking WV down until they became a thorn. How many villages were attacked other than by Chernobyl and Wayneville, or in stated retaliation by Xanadu?

I just don't think anyone else wanted to play at war.

[Seizure]

Xanadu cant defend Codexia tonight

When was the last time Xanadu defended anything?

[Cookie]

They never did. Not to be mean, but they were useless. Nobody ever survived because Xanadu came to the rescue.

[Seizure]

I don't think anyone was interested in taking WV down until they became a thorn. How many villages were attacked other than by Chernobyl and Wayneville, or in stated retaliation by Xanadu?

I just don't think anyone else wanted to play at war.

Many people were attacked daily by smaller people... The only reason you didn't hear about them is because 2 main reasons...

1) you did hear about it, but you either forgot or was blamed on WV by a runestone, or something similarly silly. I cant remember how many topics I have seen of people getting stolen from, or in the IRC of people asking for help tracking.
2) they knew there wasnt squat they could do because they could not pay a tracker to exact justice. I wouldnt trust a random tracker anyways, because there is nothing stopping him from taking your payment and walking, laughing the whole time.