Revamp the FEP system

[loftar]

I'll state the things I personally don't like about the current system. I don't know what loftar would consider a good thing or a bad thing.

-Permanent effects of the size of the bar

That, however, is a good thing for the same reason that permadeath is a good thing: Your choices matter in the long run.

-Little room for specialization

It is true that the game does offer too little incentive for specialization as it is, but that is (as has been pointed out already) not a problem with the FEP system, but with the general lack of content. If anything, the FEP system in itself encourages specialization, since it is far easier to level only one or a few stats than all of them. What the game needs is reasons to specialize; not a stat system that forces it.

-(As far as I see) Multi-stat foods are pointless because of the random factor

They are not pointless as long as you do not seek to explicitly avoid leveling all but one stat, which you almost never do. As Burgingham rightly states, the game would be better served by removing single-FEP foods than it would by removing multi-FEP foods. The random factor is, on the contrary, the exact thing that makes multi-FEP foods meaningful -- if all foods were single-FEP foods, then the random factor would almost never matter.

-People eat the same thing, without the need to diversify

That is simply false. If you eat the same thing without diversifying, you would simply be leveling more slowly than would people who do diversify, much because of the diversification bonus. God knows I eat as diverse foods as possible.

Stat decay solves these. And I would stop hinting that idea until someone says something validly bad about it.

The plain and simple truth is that your premises are (as shown) wrong, and therefore your decay system is not motivated.

And I don't mean....

I am not obliged in any way to write a god damned essay on why I dislike something.

To be fair, all Potjeh did was say that he didn't like the idea and that, in a poll, his vote would be to the negative; he didn't, by way of that, consider it disproved (though I don't like putting words into other people's mouths; I hope Potjeh and sabinati will forgive me).

your posts are bad!

To be fair again, sabinati isn't just trying to troll, but rather means is that it seems evident to all reasonable people why your posts weren't taken seriously and that, instead of asking people to offer their own time to explain to you why that is, he would encourage you instead to take a step back, look over the arguments and see if you can't see why that is so. I myself will abstain from affirming or denying that assessment of your argumentation, but you should probably treat his post as such, rather than as a pointless attempt at trolling.

[loftar]

You haven't given a response to anything in my gruelingly large post.

Indeed -- I instead chose the much more efficient method of condensing your gruelingly large post to its essential argument and giving a response to that. If you don't agree with my conclusion of your arguments, that is another thing.

Why do you think stats growing on their own would be a bad idea Loftar? Not everyone lives in one of the few top tier cities in H&H like most of the people enforcing the FEP system do. True, this system is made a lot easier if you live in Sodom or something.

Because I think it would be boring. The FEP system is fun precisely because it offers a challenge rather than, again, being the most direct possible tool for leveling one's character. Again you speak in terms that leveling stats should just be easier. To my ears, that sounds like arguing that golf shouldn't require you to use clubs, because it's easier to put the ball in the cup by carrying it there with your hands, preferably in a golf cart.

And just for the record, both I and Jorb play the game as hermits, and both of us (unless Jorb has reversed his outspoken position overnight) like the FEP system as it is, so it has nothing to do with living in Sodom.

Edit: Also for the record, my stats are far from being perfectly balanced. Early on, I chose to powerlevel my Perception to spot more stuff in the wild, and I haven't felt that being any particular handicap since. You really don't need to keep your stats perfectly balanced.

[Atherman]

I don't think once I ever said raising stats was too difficult. I said trying to keep your stats balance to keep your character patch proof is difficult, not fun, and probably the most grueling aspect of this game. I really doubt you worry about one of your own patches screwing your character over, but think about it just for a second. You have a full PVPer in this game that has a insane amount of STR and CON because let's face it, they just want to PVP. Now you decide to work on and update the combat system and factor agility into combat. (Because come on, what game uses just STR in combat and not AGI?) This person's character is now ruined. It'll take him eons to try and fix his agility, you might as well have just deleted his character.

It don't know how you can say players don't need to keep their stats balanced, you designed this system, didn't you? The FEP system isn't a challenge, it's a superfluous grind. It's like telling a golf player that instead of riding his cart over to the next hole, he needs to do back flips over to it while constantly saying the ABC's backwards. He's not going to enjoy it but if he doesn't do it, you'll add 4 strokes to his game.

"Instead of just raising the stats you need, you need to raise every other stat too because you'll never be able to raise them again and my patches might ruin you!"

[loftar]

I don't think once I ever said raising stats was too difficult.

You do, however, constantly speak of making it easier; which is saying the same thing in different terms.

patch proof [...] patches screwing your character [...] update the combat system [...] "my patches might ruin you!"

So are you saying that this is all about not having to worry about future patches? In that case, the problem isn't with the FEP system; every single aspect of the game is sensitive to patches. Whenever anything changes, anyone having invested in that risks having it turn into a malinvestment (though on the contrary, it may also turn out to pay off even better). When we added object destruction, we were raged at by people no longer able to protect their homes by surrounding them with drying racks; when I made bears and boars escape, I was raged at by people who could not imagine not playing the game by two-shotting bears. Et cetera ad nauseam. (Edit: You could also imagine that, instead of giving a previous stat a new meaning, we could also introduce a new stat -- in that case, no FEP revamps could help you, since there weren't even any foods previously to give you those FEPs.)

Surely, the central aspect of game design should not be keeping people safe from future changes, but rather to end up with an end result that is fun? To that end, what is required is agility, and not being bogged down in players' current investments. Do remember that Haven is considered alpha, please.

[Gulluoglu]

Haha, don't change any game systems, you might screw up his alpha character's precious stats.

Seriously, hard to get behind Aetherman's position here.

[Atherman]

I don't think once I ever said raising stats was too difficult.

You do, however, constantly speak of making it easier; which is saying the same thing in different terms.

I speak of revamping the system to remove the pointless parts and add onto the good ones. I think food giving FEPs is cool. I think your highest stat determining how big your FEP is is not cool. I think raising your stats to benefit your character is cool. I think being forced to raise your stats evenly is not cool.



I do consistantly remember that H&H is Alpha, but you folks have put a large amount of time and work into this game and I truly believe that it deserves a full level of criticism and not some half assed "Well I'd suggest this but it's in Alpha so I won't bother." Comparing the current FEP system to walls made of drying racks is rather foolish in my opinion. People that bank on game faults and glitches should not feel patch proof. Someone who has upped their combat stats for combat should feel patch proof.

This has nothing to do with abusing faulty game mechanics. This is based around the fact that if you don't equally balance your character, your character will further sink into an irreparable stat difference debt. Meaning: You don't raise stats equal, you make bad character. I've asked a large number of people if they find trying to balance stats they don't want with the stats they do 'Fun' or 'Exciting' and a large number of them (All) said they do not.


The current FEP system results in unarguably this : People try to keep their stats as balanced as possible because they know the more uneven they are, the more difficult it will be to have lower stats catch up should a patch make them useful. People spend their time grinding a perfect balance of food with no specialization and get stressed when they have to grind more food of a FEP they don't have easy access to. People in turn don't even bother using the FEP system balance and just raise the two or three useful stats and will rage completely and quit when a future patch makes the one stat they don't use relevant to their trade.


My FEP system would result, to my knowledge, in this : With a full range of crafts/combat/content, every stat becomes useful. Players, depending on their play style, do whatever they think is enjoyable and grind the individual stats that benefit that. Warriors will be strong. Crafters can be smart. Leaders can be charismatic. Some people will try to be the best in everything, like in any game, but will need to spend worlds of effort doing it. If someone wants to mix and match, they can, but will be limited by splitting up their LP and FEPs.

[DatOneGuy]

You're missing every point made in this thread entirely. Maybe someone else will bother summarizing it for you.

[Onionfighter]

Dear Atherman,

Bread is easy to make and gives no fep. Fill up on that when you have problems.

Also, anyone who had characters that migrated from the 1st to the 2nd world started off with 10 dex and psi. This was unavoidable. As has been said before, your problems could be solved by a little planning.

[Atherman]

Bread is easy to make and awards no FEPs, meaning you will never gain a stat which are fundamental to gameplay.

My problem cannot be solved by any amount of planning because my problem is that I'm forced to grind stats I don't want or need.
My problem can only be solved by improved game mechanic design.

[spectacle]

Bread is easy to make and awards no FEPs, meaning you will never gain a stat which are fundamental to gameplay.

My problem cannot be solved by any amount of planning because my problem is that I'm forced to grind stats I don't want or need.
My problem can only be solved by improved game mechanic design.

If you don't want or need the stats, why do you bother raising them? Just chill out, relax, and eat what you like. It's not the end of the world if a few stats fall behind, especially if you don't use them for anything. And once you have a more experienced character and can craft high-ql stuff it's not so hard to bring a low attribute up to a decent level.

I should know, I had str over 100 when I found a silver mine and decided I needed psy, getting psy to catch up was not particularly hard. Now that psy is my highest attribute I'm hardly struggling to bring the my other stats up, fep variety is your friend.

If you want to make your character patch-proof, forget about it. if you can't deal with radical changes to the game invalidating stuff you have done, then take a break and come back when the game is out of alpha.