Scant regard for stats

[Kaios]

I keep coming back to this topic when I see a new post but I don't think I've ready anything bigger than two lines.

[Danno]

So basically you have relatively no understanding of PvP and very little of the combat system in general.

Sorry, let me grind for another few hundred hours so I can try it out.


Let's look at this in another way. Living in democratic countries, most of us think of communism as a scary and evil concept that can never work. To call someone a "communist" is considered an insult for some reason. Guess what? Communism works very well in this game. DatOneGuy believes in it to the extent of sharing accounts.
Being MMO gamers, most of us have put up with grind after grind. Some of us apparently think of a grindless world as a scary and evil concept that can never work. Guess what? It might just work if you gave it a chance.

I keep coming back to this topic when I see a new post but I don't think I've ready anything bigger than two lines.

In summary, I think the game should be based on skill/having fun and that grinding shouldn't be necessary or encouraged. DatOneGuy believes grinding is necessary and that people should make characters as efficiently as possible/grind for several hundred hours before being allowed to try PvP or pose any type of threat because he probably doesn't want to be overthrown by dirty newbs/casuals.

Our tl;dr's probably have no effect on each other since we obviously can't understand each other's point of view. If jorb/loftar waste their time reading it, maybe they can understand why we feel the way we do, though.

[spectacle]

While I don't particularly like the grind part of grinding, without the need/benefit of grinding the game will probably turn into a glorified deathmatch where players attack others for lulz all the time because there is not much else to do, and not much risk if you fail. H&H is primarily an economic game, not a combat one, and PvP isn't the object of the game but a measure of last resort when relations break down.

If you want to make it easier for newer players to get involved in PvP then I think one way would be to give the veteran players some reason not to get involved in the affairs of newbies. That way we should see more newb on newb fights with a low barrier of entry.

[Danno]

It doesn't necessarily have to be that people attack each other and toss their belongings away constantly as if such things are worthless, but I think this game is boring without change. The economic aspect of this game has already been played to death.
1. Make a bunch of silk, get a bunch of cavebulbs, be lucky enough to own a high quality spot, etc.
2. Trade with the top villages so you can have the best stuff in the game.
3. You're done. Grind in their shadow for eternity. You'll never catch up; you already lost.

MMOs need a cooperative and/or competitive aspect. The cooperative aspect of this game is pretty much limited to helping each other grind more efficiently (after you've made your village and such) and there simply is no competitive aspect. There can't possibly be one if two sides can't stand on equal grounds. There likely won't be any newb on newb fights if a third party can crush both thanks to having joined the game months earlier. Thinking about that, these newbs would rather match the third party's strength so they could crush their newbish enemy rather than settling for an even match. If people can go higher, they will.
Besides, newb fights would be meaningless. It would just be a little squabble with absolutely no impact on the world and they'd still never be able to compete with established villages (unless they can attack in high numbers, which isn't happening). They might beat the one newb village in their region and then that's that forever.

The grind is just:
a) Boring
b) Separating newbs/casuals from oldbies/grinders, preventing competition
c) Making people too scared to risk their characters

[DatOneGuy]

You can test pvp with 20 in stats. Just get a friend with nearby stats and have at it. Hell a 1/1/1 character could test it out, just have ability to spar.

[DatOneGuy]

So basically you have relatively no understanding of PvP and very little of the combat system in general.

Sorry, let me grind for another few hundred hours so I can try it out.


Let's look at this in another way. Living in democratic countries, most of us think of communism as a scary and evil concept that can never work. To call someone a "communist" is considered an insult for some reason. Guess what? Communism works very well in this game. DatOneGuy believes in it to the extent of sharing accounts.
Being MMO gamers, most of us have put up with grind after grind. Some of us apparently think of a grindless world as a scary and evil concept that can never work. Guess what? It might just work if you gave it a chance.

You seriously just call me a commie cause I share accounts? You better watch yourself >:|
Give it a chance somewhere else, games have tried it, this is an MMORPG, not an MMOFPS or an MMOFighter, so no, don't expect those things. If you want a game like that you're in the wrong genre really, in RPGs there will be numbers, where there are numbers, there's eventually grind if you can raise them!

I share accounts because it's just smart, I'm no commie and no part of it is necessary. (Also they're just 'public accounts' not my main or anything...)

It doesn't necessarily have to be that people attack each other and toss their belongings away constantly as if such things are worthless, but I think this game is boring without change. The economic aspect of this game has already been played to death.
1. Make a bunch of silk, get a bunch of cavebulbs, be lucky enough to own a high quality spot, etc.
2. Trade with the top villages so you can have the best stuff in the game.
3. You're done. Grind in their shadow for eternity. You'll never catch up; you already lost.

MMOs need a cooperative and/or competitive aspect. The cooperative aspect of this game is pretty much limited to helping each other grind more efficiently (after you've made your village and such) and there simply is no competitive aspect. There can't possibly be one if two sides can't stand on equal grounds. There likely won't be any newb on newb fights if a third party can crush both thanks to having joined the game months earlier. Thinking about that, these newbs would rather match the third party's strength so they could crush their newbish enemy rather than settling for an even match. If people can go higher, they will.
Besides, newb fights would be meaningless. It would just be a little squabble with absolutely no impact on the world and they'd still never be able to compete with established villages (unless they can attack in high numbers, which isn't happening). They might beat the one newb village in their region and then that's that forever.

The grind is just:
a) Boring
b) Separating newbs/casuals from oldbies/grinders, preventing competition
c) Making people too scared to risk their characters

You can't always grind higher. You should always aim for higher, how is that a bad thing.
A)Grind is always boring when you know it's grind. It's those things you can have fun and 'relax' doing that arent' so grindy. As someone stated earlier you can't get rid of grind, but you can make it fun, so give some suggestions to make it fun, your suggestions aren't solutions so far.
B)Look at AD, that's far from the truth, AD joined months later and is now one of the biggest cities, a 'faction' and has quality matching even Sodom and Buyan on SOME respects
C)That's a fear that should stay if you value your character. You should always fear for your character, that makes it more fun and realistic and brings in the idea of actual risk, you'll think twice before going to war, but it now needs something worth it so that you actually EVER bother.

[Danno]

You seriously just call me a commie cause I share accounts? You better watch yourself >:|
Give it a chance somewhere else, games have tried it, this is an MMORPG, not an MMOFPS or an MMOFighter, so no, don't expect those things. If you want a game like that you're in the wrong genre really, in RPGs there will be numbers, where there are numbers, there's eventually grind if you can raise them!

I share accounts because it's just smart, I'm no commie and no part of it is necessary. (Also they're just 'public accounts' not my main or anything...)

I meant no offense at all by calling you a communist, but sharing accounts is a fine example of it. Rather than being selfish and thinking only about your own gain, you work together as a team in your village and help each other rise up. The idea of communism, if followed properly, is to share your resources equally to that end.
Maybe we can add random battles since this is an RPG and all RPGs have random battles.


A) You can remove grind. It's as simple as taking it out. Only thing is that doing so changes the focus of the game. Grinding will always become boring. In DFO, it becomes particularly tedious when you run out of quests or have no new dungeon to enter. The H&H equivalent would be once you've finished building your village and getting your quality to a decent level. In a grindy game, the solution is to add new content, but we can't expect that on even a monthly basis. The only new "content" added to this game on a regular basis is the players themselves, so I believe that should be used to keep the challenge up.

B) Okay, then let me round up 20-40 of my closest friends so we can build a huge village, grind together for a couple months with at least 8 hours a day, then wage war on someone. Of course, we'll want to use good tactics and attack while the target's defenses are at their lowest and our victory is most assured, and they'll likely be full change since they aren't expecting the attack, meaning half of them will just log out and wait till it's all over. This is, of course, very likely and is going to happen more than once a year.

C) A person might be willing to put $20 into a slot machine, but it's not likely you'll find a person who would drop $10,000 into it for one spin. Unless time/money is completely worthless to them, of course.


But okay, I give up, real PvP is something that's highly viable and will happen. The problem is only that we need something to push people to battle and the time investment should take no blame. I'm claiming tin/copper as we speak, so I'll be able to change up my flour grind by grinding bronze equipment. I'll try to forget about applying for further education or getting a job again since those will only hinder me. People with real life responsibilities shouldn't be allowed to compete in MMOs for fun; they should only be allowed to check emails, use Facebook, and go to parties. You'll be hearing from me 8 months from now when I'm knocking on your brickwall gate with my ranger's bow representing the mighty nation of LifeDedication4competitionland. jorb/loftar, please disregard any suggestions increasing chances of equality and please remove the new supergrids to ensure equality stays to a minimum. We need more powerless newbs asking for our metal so we can get our stats up faster.

[DatOneGuy]

You seriously just call me a commie cause I share accounts? You better watch yourself >:|
Give it a chance somewhere else, games have tried it, this is an MMORPG, not an MMOFPS or an MMOFighter, so no, don't expect those things. If you want a game like that you're in the wrong genre really, in RPGs there will be numbers, where there are numbers, there's eventually grind if you can raise them!

I share accounts because it's just smart, I'm no commie and no part of it is necessary. (Also they're just 'public accounts' not my main or anything...)

I meant no offense at all by calling you a communist, but sharing accounts is a fine example of it. Rather than being selfish and thinking only about your own gain, you work together as a team in your village and help each other rise up. The idea of communism, if followed properly, is to share your resources equally to that end.
Maybe we can add random battles since this is an RPG and all RPGs have random battles.

Okay that's fine then. But we work together for the greater good not as communists but because it's obvious that this should be done. If you don't, why are you a village? A village to me is a group of people working towards a common goal, if you can't trust your villagers to do good and help out, why bother. We don't share resources 'equally', you help you get stuff, you don't, you don't. you're free to do your own stuff, want hq clay? found a spot? Have fun. In fact there isn't even a rule saying you need to help, or you need to do X or Y, but if you do it helps, and we prefer people who help.

A) You can remove grind. It's as simple as taking it out. Only thing is that doing so changes the focus of the game. Grinding will always become boring. In DFO, it becomes particularly tedious when you run out of quests or have no new dungeon to enter. The H&H equivalent would be once you've finished building your village and getting your quality to a decent level. In a grindy game, the solution is to add new content, but we can't expect that on even a monthly basis. The only new "content" added to this game on a regular basis is the players themselves, so I believe that should be used to keep the challenge up.

Doing so changes the genre, the focus of the game, and won't last long at all really. Grinding is not always boring, don't know about you but 1hkoing most things while sling hunting despite being tedious was very fun and relaxing, I enjoyed it, I enjoyed the return rate on sausage, I enjoyed all of it. I'd enjoy bow hunting if it wasn't for the need for survival IN THE FIELD and the constant need for more arrows. And no, it didn't feel 'broken' to me personally but I understand the change, they want what we had to be harder to reach, to be endgame, yet we sell these slings and stuff to newbies and allow them to reach this endgame status for a measly 60 Pts (A fewthousand bricks, maybe a few hundred blueberries), feh.

B) Okay, then let me round up 20-40 of my closest friends so we can build a huge village, grind together for a couple months with at least 8 hours a day, then wage war on someone. Of course, we'll want to use good tactics and attack while the target's defenses are at their lowest and our victory is most assured, and they'll likely be full change since they aren't expecting the attack, meaning half of them will just log out and wait till it's all over. This is, of course, very likely and is going to happen more than once a year.

This isn't necessary, some of the larger more prominent and stronger villages have under 10 members, and many of their members don't play so much man. You learn to 'play the game' and you'll have no problems. The problem is you're commenting on 'the game' without having played it to the full extent. I've done this before back when I was in Brohalla but my concepts weren't so ridiculous because I actually did spar with friends and we fucked around with each other. Since then I've learned a lot more and had much more experience in general but my view on caps stays the same.

C) A person might be willing to put $20 into a slot machine, but it's not likely you'll find a person who would drop $10,000 into it for one spin. Unless time/money is completely worthless to them, of course.

Then if you assume you put in $20 like everyone else, you have the same chances of winning as them. given this is competitive and slots aren't, that wasn't the best analogy but whatever.

But okay, I give up, real PvP is something that's highly viable and will happen. The problem is only that we need something to push people to battle and the time investment should take no blame. I'm claiming tin/copper as we speak, so I'll be able to change up my flour grind by grinding bronze equipment. I'll try to forget about applying for further education or getting a job again since those will only hinder me. People with real life responsibilities shouldn't be allowed to compete in MMOs for fun; they should only be allowed to check emails, use Facebook, and go to parties. You'll be hearing from me 8 months from now when I'm knocking on your brickwall gate with my ranger's bow representing the mighty nation of LifeDedication4competitionland. jorb/loftar, please disregard any suggestions increasing chances of equality and please remove the new supergrids to ensure equality stays to a minimum. We need more powerless newbs asking for our metal so we can get our stats up faster.

I get your problem you expect to get the same out of it, what you don't understand (and I can't say outright because it's not known to all) is that there are systems in place that will eventually come in (no idea when probably next world) to relieve all of these things.

It's an Alpha, you're here to playtest, not win a game, if you want to play and you want 'balance' come back when it's finished, the game is playable now in alpha and that's fun, but do expect problems, and do expect them to be addressed, maybe not your way, but I'm sure they'll end up fixed if it's really a problem. :/

[Danno]

Okay that's fine then. But we work together for the greater good not as communists but because it's obvious that this should be done. If you don't, why are you a village? A village to me is a group of people working towards a common goal, if you can't trust your villagers to do good and help out, why bother. We don't share resources 'equally', you help you get stuff, you don't, you don't. you're free to do your own stuff, want hq clay? found a spot? Have fun. In fact there isn't even a rule saying you need to help, or you need to do X or Y, but if you do it helps, and we prefer people who help.

Well, I guess it's not right to say you're absolute communists, but that is the ideology you're leaning towards in that regard. I agree that it's better to work together as a village rather than be greedy and stuff. As I mentioned earlier, my village has a food house that I simply put food into; I don't ask for any kind of payment from my fellow villagers since we'd never get anywhere if I was tapping all their resources. I assume lots of other villages also have public food houses and other such things.

Doing so changes the genre, the focus of the game, and won't last long at all really. Grinding is not always boring, don't know about you but 1hkoing most things while sling hunting despite being tedious was very fun and relaxing, I enjoyed it, I enjoyed the return rate on sausage, I enjoyed all of it.

I liked the humour of the absolutely vicious sound of hitting a target, myself. The animal avatars and their finely defined butts are also pretty funny. It at least required you to move around and find your prey and it felt more rewarding to see +1080 instead of the +36 you get from harvesting a crop among your huge field. Indeed, for being a grind, it was less tedious than the rest, though it still wasn't something I went out and did on a constant basis (or even a regular basis). There can be some better forms of grind, but I can't say I'd really look forward to any of them, especially not for several hundred hours.

This isn't necessary, some of the larger more prominent and stronger villages have under 10 members, and many of their members don't play so much man. You learn to 'play the game' and you'll have no problems.

I sorta assumed bigger villages had more than 10 members since there are apparently 400+ people playing right now. I know the world is huge since I've travelled half the distance and back by wagon in one direction and by boat in another, but among my travels, I've rarely seen active villages. I guess I just happened to miss them or something. Still, your theory is that I have to double their numbers if my village has average fighters and they have god fighters.

Then if you assume you put in $20 like everyone else, you have the same chances of winning as them.

Well, that's fine if I can find hobos and want to compete with them, but I don't like how it's virtually impossible to compete with the high rollers. There's also still the matter of having zero impact on the world. Nothing would change if I strangled a fellow hobo with my shoe lace, so the situation wouldn't draw much interest.

It's an Alpha, you're here to playtest, not win a game, if you want to play and you want 'balance' come back when it's finished, the game is playable now in alpha and that's fun, but do expect problems, and do expect them to be addressed, maybe not your way, but I'm sure they'll end up fixed if it's really a problem. :/

I'm playing now and having fun since I'm still in the mid-game range. I think having fun is way more important than winning, which is why I don't focus too much on grinding and am more interested in just building and stuff. It's just that the most exciting multiplayer aspect has pretty much been stripped away, or at least currently. This topic is more about my opinion formed from playtesting than some sort of hostile demand towards the developers. If the game remains fun even in the later stages with whatever changes they bring, I'm all for it even if there are no caps, even if casuals can't compete with grinders, and even if mines are a resource not everyone can have. I don't claim to know what they're planning or that my way is better no matter what; there are infinite possibilities I haven't thought of that could make the game fun and exciting the whole way through, and it would be great if that's how it turned out.

What I mainly hope for is that an average player is capable of bringing change to the world (more than just paving their name on the ground somewhere) and that new players are used as a variable for game difficulty since they're the only consistent, natural change. Even if there were monuments spawning like someone suggested, we'd get used to it eventually. I played Smash Bros till level 9 computer players were nothing but a piece of cake; even facing three of them while they were on a team was lacking at times. No matter how hard this game's AI may become, I think humans will always overcome it. Overcoming another human, however, is an entirely different story. Being able to grind to greatness just prevents new players from being a challenge (unless they're very dedicated).

[sabinati]

I'll try to forget about applying for further education or getting a job again since those will only hinder me. People with real life responsibilities shouldn't be allowed to compete in MMOs for fun; they should only be allowed to check emails, use Facebook, and go to parties. You'll be hearing from me 8 months from now when I'm knocking on your brickwall gate with my ranger's bow representing the mighty nation of LifeDedication4competitionland. jorb/loftar, please disregard any suggestions increasing chances of equality and please remove the new supergrids to ensure equality stays to a minimum. We need more powerless newbs asking for our metal so we can get our stats up faster.

man, fuck off with this shit, seriously