Developer Thoughts on PvP

[novaalpha]

This just in, some people do.

[Pictor]

This just in, no one gives a fuck.

A sharp tongued response that doesn't actually mean anything. You don't give a fuck. Jorb and Loftar are the ones who, if they don't give a fuck, probably should. It's their community. It's their game. They should care about the fact that the dominant role models of the community are assholes. You don't care because you probably don't have any investment to Haven outside of how much it can entertain you.

[Potjeh]

Well how about you learn to write coherent and concise criticism, because I doubt you understand your post yourself. The only interpretation I see is: scents are bad, because they affect good guys too, so go implement some convoluted village warfare system to replace the simple and efficient thing we have, even though it's nigh impossible to make it unexploitable with dummy villages. If you were such an expert on game design you would surely know the good old KISS rule. Now, while your ideas may be bad that's certainly not a sin, everyone has stupid ideas now and then. No, the real reason that you got a hostile response is that you're being a pretentious twat about it, going on about how it's high level stuff that us low-brow plebs could never possibly understand, even though "remove scents QQ" is one of the oldest ideas discussed on these forums and repeatedly shot down, the only difference being that yours version is exceedingly vague and reads like a discussion on mysteries of the universe by a pair of potheads.

[Tonkyhonk]

1: I post reflective thoughts
2: I get snide remarks from moderators
3: I counter remarks with other snide remarks
4: Moderator makes a big list of why I'm wrong
5: Moderator gets applause
6: I point out that more or less every single thing the moderator said was wrong
7: I get snide remarks from moderators

1: your unspecific points which were really blurr to me were based upon your assumption of the devs desire as "having a large playerbase". as in, "it can be secondary to other dsires, but it's still significant". i do not get such impression from the devs so far. Jorb often says he made this game to play himself.
also, "it could be expanded. Village vs Village Warfare" as if youve seen enough to know that this game got none. just because such warfares are not recognizable to you, does it mean there are none? that simply means you have not played this game that far yet, im afraid. you only replied to that part as "you missed the points" bs later.

2: moderators are also players and forumers. its just that they are moderating enough to bother to read your unmeaningful wall of text to make a reply, snide or not.

3: you mean, like "not the kind of thing the average joe would be able to appreciate" and "terrible at simplifying my thoughts below a certain level"? or are you talking about "Haven and Hearth is shit without good reason" part? all those just sounded to me like you were too high level to talk with others but still you had to post here to say so. your disrespectful way of writing would only make readers fed up and would not let others to wish to discuss further.

5: i did not applaud Moderator, i applauded potjeh for his post making clear points, but not for his status.

6: you made a list of "i never ～", but you never rephrased your points that you thought you had made. if you think you couldnt make yourself understood, you should have gotten to the point directly.
again, what was your point? wanted some discussions but you would never step "down" to the others lvls?
the things you listed in your first post did not offer anything new to discuss further, as potjeh pointed out.

7: im wondering why you cant see the reason of the snide remarks.

what i remember Jorb and Loftar said is that they have no intentions of baby-sitting.
you might make a great baby-sitter by your moderating carreer, but its not what they want here.
"good" or "bad" are only subjective here and it is not you but they who decide what "good" moderators should do. (that part is actually largely misunderstood by too many players here as well, imo. it is true that they do often go a bit too "snide" but i can see why after reading some. if you dont see why, then im sorry to say your comprehension ability is not as good as you believe, or you are simply not familiar enough with this game.)

btw, many ppl talk as if mods were to be "saints" and many wish to be one, and i never understand that.
your post also sounded like you were so proud of being a mod also, which means absolutely nothing to me.
i hate being mods or admins and those who are too proud of being one. why would i need to respect another player for being a mod? makes me feel sick, really. i like many of the posts the green names make, but thats not because they are mods. you are not that low level to be blinded by their green names i hope?
there are many players with high post counts and make no sense. its strange that you cant differentiate them from the others.

Here's a clue, children; If you can't take abuse, you shouldn't be moderators. If people don't feel comfortable calling you on your bullshit, you breed a community of people who agree with you. If you breed a community of people who agree with you, you end up never actually getting any useful feedback, because nobody's going to stand up and say, hey, dude, you're full of shit. And you may be full of shit. But you'd never know, because as any 9th grader will tell you, admitting that you might be wrong, even to yourself, is a sign of weakness.

This may be my last post here, but fuck me, it was worth it to get that off my chest.

Come at me, motherfuckers

you are talking to yourself. see it in a mirror.
i can imagine what kind of forums you are moderating at.

p.s.
i do tend to make walls of text, but at least im aware that the smartest ones always come up with shortest and simple line to convince others.
also, pardon me that i can never write as "fancy" as a native english writer can and might have made many errors, but my policy is against learning just decorations to cover up writing.

p.s.s.
wow, you had made more posts after saying the last.
fyi, im pretty sure jorb would step in to have a say if he finds your posts entertaining enough.

[burgingham]

It's about realizing that you're supposed to be a community role model

No, see that is where you are wrong in your basic assumption and your whole argument falls to pieces. We are here...how did Jack put it: We are here to clean up your garbage.

What I'd really love to do is discuss them with Jorb; Holy shit, I could learn from him.

You cannot possibly be that arrogant. See this is why we are acting like assholes towards you. Maybe try being a little more humble about your argument the next time instead of calling everyone dumb or an idiot. It is your attitude that brought this agression upon you.

[Pictor]

stuff

Hey, points! Okay. I can work with this.

First, I want to point out that I made the "high level" comment specifically to piss you off after you came along and made the "your post is without content" comment. Check the order of posting if you don't believe me. I didn't get snarky until after you did. My snark was retaliatory. If you don't like to take it then don't dish it out. Now let's address the substance.

The retribution scents and village warfare things were not actual suggestions. They were shitty little side-thoughts that I spat out, not as solutions to existing problems, but rather to prove a point that there were in fact rules to be tampered with. For some reason everybody seems to think that the only option for adjusting PvP balance in Haven and Hearth is to turn it off. You don't balance PvP by turning it off in certain places, you balance it by fucking around with the consequences of PvP. If the consequences are too strong, you effectively disable PvP anyway. If they're too weak, the consequences may as well not exist. I would argue that, in the current system, the consequences are almost insignificant (although that wasn't one of the original points I was trying to make). But I'm not suggesting just slapping in a retribution scents and call it a day. This is a delicate balance. The key point I was trying to make was that there is more room for maneuver in balancing PvP than one might initially perceive. It's not an all-or-nothing deal.

Secondly, I'm going to make a bold statement and say KISS doesn't apply here. MMOs are clusterfucks. Understanding them requires knowledge in everything from anthropology to computer science. Simplicity and elegance often go hand in hand, but just because the HnH rulesets for PvP are simple does not mean they are elegant. I don't think simple rulesets work when trying to simulate an abstract representation of reality, because the simulations are too obscenely complex in the first place. And I do not believe Haven and Hearth PvP is necessarily balanced. There's very little incentive against rampant murder.

The final point I tried to make was to dispel the illusion that Haven and Hearth was somehow pure and devoid of abstract social laws. It isn't. The law is "first come first serve", and violating that law has consequences. The idea that modifying PvP consequences would somehow violate HnH's very soul is thus a fallacy, and contrary to popular belief, Haven and Hearth is not a lawless land of chaos. It just looks that way next to more conservative MMOs.

Have I been unclear on anything?

We are here to clean up your garbage.

You misunderstand your own role as a moderator.

You cannot possibly be that arrogant.

Here's a clue: I'd be interested to talk to Jorb about MMO design because he's (half) running one and he seems to know what the hell he's talking about. You, by your own admission, are a garbage man. The reason I appear to have no respect for you or the other moderators is because I don't. I don't respect you because you've done absolutely nothing to earn it.

Jorb and Loftar said is that they have no intentions of baby-sitting.

There's a distinction between the forums and the game. They don't want to babysit the game; That's a very good design choice. They have indirectly made the decision to babysit the forums. They've just left the forums in the hands of lousy babysitters.

i can imagine what kind of forums you are moderating at.

I'll save you the trouble; MMORPG.com for a year. My boss ran a tight ship. I quit after a year voluntarily. Disclaimer my views don't represent those of my ex bosses own opinions blah blah blah.

[Tonkyhonk]

Jorb and Loftar said is that they have no intentions of baby-sitting.

There's a distinction between the forums and the game. They don't want to babysit the game; That's a very good design choice. They have indirectly made the decision to babysit the forums. They've just left the forums in the hands of lousy babysitters.

wrong assumption again. Jorb specifically mentioned he had no intentions of babysitting the forums.
also, he mentioned "freedom of speech" applies to all moderators, and no censorship.
the problem is, i dont remember where he said those, to prove you.
maybe you go reading some in the archive and prove me wrong to shut me up.

moreover, burg is being modest enough to call himself a garbage man.
not like yourself looking down on even Jorb himself, saying "he seems to know what the hell he's talking about", as if you knew better lol

ill read your points later when i get bored

[Pictor]

@Tonky: You made interesting points, so I'm doubleposting to address yours specifically.

your unspecific points which were really blurr to me were based upon your assumption of the devs desire as "having a large playerbase". as in, "it can be secondary to other dsires, but it's still significant". i do not get such impression from the devs so far. Jorb often says he made this game to play himself.

Play himself, or play BY himself? There's a difference. If he didn't want a playerbase I'm curious as to why he bothered making it an MMO. Also, they were unspecific because it was originally just a streaming thought process. Food for thought. Not necessarily "HERE ARE POINTS HERE ARE CHANGES WE MUST COMMIT TO THEM".

Village vs Village Warfare" as if youve seen enough to know that this game got none. just because such warfares are not recognizable to you, does it mean there are none?

Wrong way around. I recognize Village vs Village Warfare. The game doesn't. The server just sees people committing actions and leaving scents. It was still a needless aside, by the way, but the point is that it was an example of something that existed in the metagame, but not as an actual mechanic.

you mean, like "not the kind of thing the average joe would be able to appreciate" and "terrible at simplifying my thoughts below a certain level"? or are you talking about "Haven and Hearth is shit without good reason" part?

The first two. The third one was an honest statement, although I may have exaggerated. It's not horrible, but there are some bloody rough bits that I believe are rough without them being rough by necessity (and sometimes, things are rough simply because they have to be).

your disrespectful way of writing would only make readers fed up and would not let others to wish to discuss further.

Potjeh started it.

i did not applaud Moderator, i applauded potjeh for his post making clear points, but not for his status.

Fair enough, my mistake.

but you never rephrased your points that you thought you had made

I believe my second post tried to reiterate, but beyond that, his interpretations were so far off what I actually said I figured the best thing to do would basically be to tell him to go back and read it again, because he clearly didn't do a very good job the first time.

your post also sounded like you were so proud of being a mod also, which means absolutely nothing to me.

It's not a sense of pride. Well, okay, it is, but it's more disgust at incompetence. I'm more disgusted by their incompetence because I've been in a similar position myself.

i like many of the posts the green names make, but thats not because they are mods. you are not that low level to be blinded by their green names i hope?

Some of their posts are fine. Some are not.

the smartest ones always come up with shortest and simple line to convince others.

Brevity is not my forte.

fyi, im pretty sure jorb would step in to have a say if he finds your posts entertaining enough.

It'd be interesting, but I'm not counting on it.

wrong assumption again. Jorb specifically mentioned he had no intentions of babysitting the forums.
also, he mentioned "freedom of speech" applies to all moderators, and no censorship.

Okay, now this is actually quite interesting. If he had no intention of babysitting the forums, I wonder if he meant personally or generally. If he meant generally, I wonder why he bothered giving people moderator privileges at all. Further more, if he did want freedom of speech to apply to all moderators.. Okay, that's particularly interesting, in part because it's a bit dicey. It's one thing to say that moderators can engage in free discussion, but allowing them to slag off other users is pretty dicey for reasons I've indicated before.

not like yourself looking down on even Jorb himself, saying "he seems to know what the hell he's talking about", as if you knew better lol

That's a good point I suppose, but I didn't mean it offensively; When I said I could learn from him, I meant it. I can't learn from him unless he's smarter than me (or at least more knowledgable, which he most certainly would be given his experience). The reason I said "he seems to know what the hell he's talking about" is because.. well, let's just say given the state of the industry I don't have a hell of a lot of faith in most MMO developers.

[Skorm]

It's about realizing that you're supposed to be a community role model

No, see that is where you are wrong in your basic assumption and your whole argument falls to pieces. We are here...how did Jack put it: We are here to clean up your garbage.


i am preatty sure he said Shit.

[Pictor]

It's about realizing that you're supposed to be a community role model

No, see that is where you are wrong in your basic assumption and your whole argument falls to pieces. We are here...how did Jack put it: We are here to clean up your garbage.


i am preatty sure he said Shit.

If moderators are not supposed to be role models, they should keep their moderation accounts completely private and unconnected from their forum accounts, because otherwise they end up being role models anyway.