Revamp the FEP system

[Zamte]

You make no sense and use no logic. You continue to repeat the same nonsensical bull over and over, ad naseum. You are wrong. If all stats were separate bars, had their own costs, and there was no balancing to do, then a piece of food in a cupboard is nothing but a potential stat or progress towards one. There is no benefit to leaving it in the cupboard unless you plan to give it away or trade it, in which case you will do so. It doesn't matter if that stat isn't the most useful to them, because it doesn't hurt them in any way, it doesn't make anything else harder. They can chow down a whole cupboard of dex food and still go right back to their strength food to make them a better smith. They can decide to eat all those piros they had sitting around, gain a bunch of dex and con, and go right back to mass cooking cavebulbs for psy. There is no drawback. As you said yourself, the fact that a future patch could change things means it's better to have them than not have them, and if there's no drawback to having them, then they're damn well going to have them.

I don't know if perhaps you're just new, or you don't play very often, or what, but food is very, very easy to get. A village member of mine went from making q60ish jewlery to making q250 jewelry in the span of a week by trading for cavebulbs and collecting some himself. We're talking several hundred cavebulbs. Normal foods are even easier. You can claim whatever you like about the current system, but there is absolutely no thought in your idea. You claim all people have to do now is collect various foods, but that's still more than they'd have to do with your dumbed down FEP system, which is collect the same food in mass numbers, something that isn't difficult. A 10x10 of wheat, a 5x5 or so of carrots, onions, grapes for raisins, poppies, and pumpkins, and you can grow your way to massive numbers of everything but psy and int through the use of baked goods. It wouldn't be hard, and could be done in high enough quantity to trivialize their stats entirely. With a 10x10 field of wheat, such as the one I actively harvest, you bring in 200 seeds to use for doughs every harvest. Couple this with the various ingredients for baked goods such as carrot cakes, piros, raisin cakes, Rings of Brodgar, and Pumpkin Pies, and all but a few stats are covered. They may not be the best foods with the best FEPs, but they're high on the list and readily available in high quantities. All you'd have to do is farm.

I have nothing wrong, as I and the others have said, with you wanting a more fun system. We just want you to make it more interesting through expansion and ideas that aren't just "make it easier, I don't like that you have to think about it". There is no denying that what you are asking is a simplification. The one thing that makes FEP unique is that all of the stats are tied to the same bar, and there is a random factor. My idea up top that has not even been commented on is an example of a way to make for more specialization, and to allow mixed foods, and mixing food types, to be even more popular and even more rewarding. I don't know if the idea overall is good, but it's a way to make the system more unique, more fun, and more complex.

Further, I think you're looking at this far too strictly if you really think people always sit there keeping every stat perfectly equal. Diversity, particularly at higher stat maxes renders differences of 10-20 points meaningless. With a max stat of 200, each unique food eaten lowers the requirement by 8.9 FEPs. That means even eating two different foods makes the difference between a stat of 200 and a stat of 182 fairly irrelevant. Yes that difference could be used to raise the stats a bit easier, but that's what we call min/maxing, and it's not something you have to take part in. The world is not going to end if you keep your stats up to snuff. It's perfectly fine to have gaps, so long as they're not incredibly extreme, like all your examples have been. I could see a problem if you had 800 strength and only 10 agility, but it's much more likely you're going to have 200 strength and 120 agility. In the end, no matter what the stats, every point raised is only 1 more FEP to gain.

In the end, I think it all goes back to a miscommunication when it comes to specialization. Specialization doesn't mean you abandon all stats in favor of one or two that help you. Things like agility, constitution, and cha to an extent are useful to everyone, and in the future I would expect that all stats would have some overall benefits attached to them which everyone will want in some quantities. A specialist is much more likely to have say, 40 con and 40 agility, with 100 dex and 50 psy, than 200 dex, 100 psy, and 10 con and 10 agi. Specialization means you focus on one area above others, but not necessarily only on that other area.

[DatOneGuy]

Hey maybe I'm missing something here Atherman, but the idea is that you don't have to do that. You're choosing to be balanced because you decided to be a jack of all trades, with that said there are some negatives that come with it, and this seems intended, but if it's not it's still a very nice deterrent, it means that people who learn to work together with others properly will get the most out of the system by not needing to do so.

[Atherman]

You seem to have a knack for writing length responses Zamte, so I apologize in advance if mine is not as bulky as yours. What exactly do you see wrong with everyone eating the food they have? Yes, everyone has large stocks of food that they don't use because the FEP doesn't let them eat it when they want to. For the first few weeks of the new system yes, all the existing set up characters will go "NOM NOM NOM" with all their stockpiled food and gain some random stats. Then they will run out and be forced to collect some new food. But they will go out and collect the food they need for their desired stats. Sure they might eat some random food along the way for the hell of it but only fools would go around just eating random food for the sake of eating. They would never specialize and be powerful in a single aspect of the game if they did that. (Hey, almost like people are now!) Eating is severely limited by the hunger bar, even with tables and even more so if the system was revamped. People would make the most use of their slowly emptying hunger bar and eat and collect the foods that benefit them.


Yes the new system would probably need farming tweaked a bit, so people of every profession don't just mass farm. With all new systems things will need to be tweaked, food grinding systems that are too easy would need to be re-done until the world is at peace. But I will continuously forever enforce the idea having to raise all your stats at least semi evenly in the current system is fucking ridiculous. To say "Oh but since it's so monotonous and pointless it keeps the game from being easy!" is moronic in and of itself. That's like saying chopping trees should be Loftar's recommended way of gaining LP. "It's so boring and uninteresting that it's great!"

You're right that not many people have their stats perfectly even, but people try to keep it as damn close as possible, which is the point. The point isn't that someone can have one stat at 200 and another stat 183. The point is that someone needs to have the second stat that high, even if they aren't using it, to continue raising the stat they need.




And no you're not missing anything DatOneGuy. You know perfectly well how the system works. You know that you need to keep your stats as balanced as possible in case a future patch makes a stat you don't have relevant to your trade. That's why you try to keep all of them as even as possible, despite your attempt at feigning ignorance.

[DatOneGuy]

Again, this isn't something you are required to do, and it's not a problem with the system, it's a (somewhat temporary) problem with the game being in alpha thus changes possibly being radical and happening.

It's something you're doing to be paranoid of future updates, it's nothing that's absolutely necessary. In a proper village you wouldn't run into this problem at all, things may change along the way, but that's part of the experience, you don't NEED to have psy on your chef, yes it would have helped given the table update, tremendously even you may say, however that's something you can do now, it might not be as easy but it's not game breaking, or a problem with the system.


I'm sorry but the FEP system turning into mindless single-tracked non-balancing crap creates another form of grind I do not want.

[Potjeh]

I think Atherman just sucks at the game.

[Atherman]

I think Potjeh needs to realize not everyone sits in an already made end game village surrounded by brick walls worrying about if their next carrot has too many leaves and if it is orange enough and if they should eat it with their golden fork or fork made from Jesus bones.




Once again DatOneGuy, you know how the system works and you know the risks someone takes if they don't balance their character completely. Yes, you don't NEED to have PSY on your Chef but now Chefs that never grinded PSY can't set tables for crap compared to if they had grinded PSY even though it was useless then. And since their FEP count is so high, grinding PSY probably isn't an option for them. Thanks for the perfect example of why this system is faulty.

[DatOneGuy]

I think Potjeh needs to realize not everyone sits in an already made end game village surrounded by brick walls worrying about if their next carrot has too many leaves and if it is orange enough and if they should eat it with their golden fork or fork made from Jesus bones.




Once again DatOneGuy, you know how the system works and you know the risks someone takes if they don't balance their character completely. Yes, you don't NEED to have PSY on your Chef but now Chefs that never grinded PSY can't set tables for crap compared to if they had grinded PSY even though it was useless then. And since their FEP count is so high, grinding PSY probably isn't an option for them. Thanks for the perfect example of why this system is faulty.

It's not necessary and they can do it after.

I don't think anyone can explain it to you in any other way, it's been explained every possible way to you in this thread, the problem isn't with the FEP system at all, if anything the FEP system needs to go in the other direction.

As for the whole 'sitting in an endgame village' deal, I'm sure he's played through his way to get there so he knows what it's like along the way, as do I.

I've been through the whole deal of having to work out all the different stats, and hell right now I'm balancing my stats to some degree, but guess what? This is fun, this is supposed to be, it is challenging, it means that you have to work it out. If I have too much CON that means I did something wrong, not that the system is flawed.

For example if I know that to get balanced stats for me and I want str, agi, con, and perception. I'd need let's say per point 5 carrot cakes, 4 pumpkin pie, 2 bbc, and 3 DDD. If I fuck up and make 8 pumpkin pie per 5 carrot cakes that's my issue and I need to balance that out properly, that has nothing to do with the system.

Decisions such as this are usually a result of analyizing a system more than just playing the game but taking it a bit too far and attempting to get 'the most' out of your time, I personally do this as well, but I don't think that it should be easier, I think it should be harder. This shouldn't happen, I shouldn't be able to look into the game and decide what the 'best option' is, there should be no best option or it should be so clouded that it'd stop me from attempting to look at it.

If you're used to doing this in games as well you probably just haven't noticed yet but it's also the biggest source of boredom when the equations are laid out in front of you or easy to figure out.

[Goom]

I read the whole thread, I'm so proud of myself, although I feel my brain may now be bleeding.

Whilst I feel I can see the benefits Atherman is proposing which appear to greatly simplify the FEP system, I feel therein lies the problem, simplification is not so interesting.
My understanding is Atherman's main concern with the current system is that it might put someones character at a disadvantage after a game changing patch. This is absolutely true. However, like many others have stated, that is not a problem with the FEP system, that is an inherent risk with any games during alpha and beta testing.

Although I am sure most of the hearthlings are playing this game as if it were an end product, it should not be forgotten that we are in effect alpha testers. Our job is to point out bugs and suggest improvements.

Nothing wrong with discussing the FEP system. From my own point of view, I really like the current system although I am open to hearing suggestions to change it, but I do not feel any of the ideas in this thread "improve" upon the current system yet.

If Jorb and Loftar overhaul everything in the game, release a new world tomorrow and wipe everything, I would be disappointed, but I would enjoy helping them test their new world and new rules and I do not think we should change something that works just because there may be future changes that hurt our own characters.

[AnnaC]

The only thing that irks me about FEPs is when you get minority FEPs constantly. 6 meals in a row with 4 combined foods that have only one common FEP which fills half the bar, and you only raise that point by 1.

I understand frustrations with FEPs, but it's a very good system and probably the most interesting handling of food and nutrition I've ever seen in a game. It's also well balanced, and doesn't contribute to a crippled character unless the player cripples them. Constantly thinking about the game in "grinds" is not the best way to approach Haven & Hearth in my opinion.

[Thurrok]

I'm bumping this one because of the 10 cupboards (literally!) of Boudin and Salami I have. I won't be eating them in the near future since that would damage my table more than it would give me FEPs. What I don't get in the first place is, why the fuck should I be eating cheeses when I find it more entertaining to slaughter animals and make them into wursts? There's several ways to play this game, but obviously all but the cheesemaker's start sucking in endgame levels. Cheese is probably the most boring food out there to make, yet still, it gives the most FEPs. The only true alternative is cooking (bigger ovens pl0x), but even that has its limits.

TL;DR
FEPs are a rather unique, entertaining, and cool way of leveling my char's stats. But the current imbalance of FEPs sucks major ass, especially sausages. Please do something, or I will be forced to munch a kitten.

EDIT: Arguments like, "trade foods you want for foods you don't want" fail here because honestly, NOBODY trades for stuff that doesn't help them. Or would YOU do a 1:1 Boudin : BBC/Piro trade? I guess not.