Character Reset: The Word.

Thoughts on the further development of Haven & Hearth? Feel free to opine!

Character Reset: The Word.

Postby jorb » Tue Jul 28, 2009 2:53 pm

Q: Will there be a character wipe with the coming map wipe?
A: No.

Q: Why not?
A: I want to see how high level players approach a new map. I want to have a wide range of players coming to the new world. I'd like to know how a new map is approached, because I believe it to be important for the future development that I know.

Q: Will there ever be a character reset?
A: If changing game mechanics demand it. For example: As it is the learning points model for character development decently approximates what we're trying to accomplish. I'm decently satisfied with the pace of level ups, and the lack of an upper cap on character stats. What I don't like is the fact that learning points can be used generically. The learning skills -- "Farming", "Clothmaking", "Beekeeping", "Sericulture", "Murder" -- should be acquired via quests, and the statistics -- "Exploration", "Unarmed Combat", "Stealth" -- would ideally be gained by using said skills. You should get better at what you actually do. Changing things like these might merit a character reset, since old values might be completely incompatible, or unbalanced, with new ditos. And we might want a "clean" environment for testing.

Q: But I'll never be able to keep up with the top players!
A: First of all, that is not a question, but a statement. Second: baloney. Nothing fundamental about the game mechanics has been changed since those players got to where they are now. If anything, critical stats like strength are now easier to level up with the availability of both beer and cheese. Sure, top players can use those as well, but they are obviously much further into the land of diminishing returns than are new players. Being number one reduces the incentive to keep advancing, and I know for a fact that several top players have not been keeping up the pace lately.

Q: But wouldn't a level playing field make things better for everyone?
A:
Image

Since that didn't work, let's try killing everyone who is happy? The Seatribe dev team does not believe in the inherent virtues of "equality". Social stratification is a natural fact of life, and of mmos. If we were to delete all existing characters, stratification will have occurred the second someone builds the first wicker basket. What, then, are we to do? Keep resetting the characters? Keep punishing dedication, ambition and talent? Most societies that have tried that approach have left only mass graves as testament to their "civilization", and we have very little reason to believe that we are a historical exception. "Unfairness" is probably the worst possible argument I could think of for resetting characters. No, seriously. It makes me cringe.

Q: But isn't there a case to be made that resetting the characters could reveal some new aspects of the game dynamics?
A: Maybe. We wouldn't know until we tried it. Is there anything concrete, besides vague talk about "game dynamics", that we would like to test? Nothing I can think of. The character development mechanics have, for example, not been changed in any significant way.

Q: Is that a definite no on character resets?
A: Of course not.

Q: If there is a character reset, will players be compensated?
A: There are so many ways to go about a character reset that I really hate to say anything on the subject. We could decide to kill off characters, while still allowing them to remain as ancestors, pending the implementation of ancestral worship. We could decide on a certain carry over cap for values with a map change. We could delete fucking everything. I've considered doing a little "Victoria Cross of the First World"-item. Maybe a statue in the character creation room to remind you of past glories. Maybe a little forum icon. We might do all, or nothing, of that. I'm not promising anything. Remember that any and all of the persistent game data might be wiped whenever we feel like it. Alpha, as has been stated ad nauseam.

Q: Do you have any wild and crazy ideas on the topic?
A: A permanent cycle of death and rebirth would fit the game's theme very well. I've considered implementing a natural cycle of Great Sunderings -- complete map and character reset -- which could only be prevented through massive, epic level, rituals of world rejuvenation, which anyone would then be free to assist in, or work to prevent. That would be pretty cool, but it's far off. I agree with the people who have been pushing for a character reset in that, with the completion of the major roads between the settlements, and the near closing of the frontiers, map development has stagnated somewhat. The initial land rush of a few weeks ago was a lot of fun to watch, and It'd be great if those experiences could be integrated into the backbone of the game, rather than being one off events. It might conflict too much with people's ambitions to create lasting values to be doable, but at least we'd be creating a very unique game environment.

Q: Fuck you for not wanting/wanting a character reset, I QUIT!
A: Again, not a question. I am very sorry to hear that, but, really, players are not my first concern at the moment. Don't get me wrong, having players is the thrill of a lifetime, but game development does not hinge on whether or not we have players at any given moment. We've been building this game for a year and a half without players. What matters to me is what the game is like when we, as all good things must come to an end at some point, do our last game update. I'd rather stay true to the vision than aim to please whoever has the biggest forum crowd at the moment. Our approach has always been that if the game is good, players will play it. We'll never bother with "marketing" for the same reason: This game spreads by word of mouth, or not at all.

Also, on this topic, I have noticed that a lot of players seem to be coming to this game with higher expectations than it can currently hope to fulfill. While that is certainly flattering, in a sense, it also sets you up for disappointment. Everyone needs to understand that this is very much a game that's still under development. I've had a high level character killed, and I've recently had my new character's camp completely ransacked (which, BTW, was my own fault completely, since I hadn't bothered to claim the entirety of my palisade (Learn from my mistake, people!)). That meant the loss of a character @ around 70 in most stats, and the loss of steel and a fairly ambitious silk production. Do I cry about that?

... only at night. When I'm alone.

It's been said before, but "Losing is fun" is really the best approach here. After the initial shock subsided, I was quite able to laugh at myself both times.

Q: Thank you for answering all these questions, any final thoughts?
A: Thank you for asking them. By all means keep discussing the issue -- my mind is rarely set on much of anything, and prone to reevaluation. I try to think of those qualities as signs of intelligence, rather than as signs of indecisiveness. Thank you all for playing and for having opinions on the continued development of H&H. I, really, wuv you vevy much.

Wall of text for the win. I'll be taking additional questions if anyone still has them.
"The psychological trials of dwellers in the last times will be equal to the physical trials of the martyrs. In order to face these trials we must be living in a different world."

-- Hieromonk Seraphim Rose
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Re: Character Reset: The Word.

Postby niltrias » Tue Jul 28, 2009 3:05 pm

Yay, Jorb!
My opinion is: By all means, reset the character base if it helps the game. But not because there are too many new people.
I especially like the idea of catacysmic events that seperate epochs. Actually, the more I have thought about it, the more I like the idea of in-game aging, which would be a automatic leveler that would keep the game from stagnating. I like the idea of limitless levels, but if it is perpetual, the game will inevitably end up with a few people that you cannot pass, at least not w/o living in your computer den for a RL year. I`m not talking about our current high guys...they got there in a month or so. But I`ve been working on a coherent wall of text on the topic for a week, so I will leave off until I have it ready.
I just have one question:
Server is down. Can you bring it back up? please?
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Re: Character Reset: The Word.

Postby jorb » Tue Jul 28, 2009 3:09 pm

niltrias wrote:Server is down. Can you bring it back up? please?


Sorry about that. Fixed. :)
"The psychological trials of dwellers in the last times will be equal to the physical trials of the martyrs. In order to face these trials we must be living in a different world."

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Re: Character Reset: The Word.

Postby niltrias » Tue Jul 28, 2009 3:18 pm

thanks!
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Re: Character Reset: The Word.

Postby PoisonedV » Tue Jul 28, 2009 3:18 pm

I don't agree with everything, but I think it's more than reasonable for both sides- and it doesn't matter that much what I agree with anyway, since I'm not in the majority.
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Re: Character Reset: The Word.

Postby Rift » Tue Jul 28, 2009 3:41 pm

I don't agree with everything, but I think it's more than reasonable for both sides- and it doesn't matter that much what I agree with anyway, since I'm not in the majority.

The point is, it doesn't matter whether or not your in the majority. The devs just do whatever they can to make a game that furfills their vision, which is priority over all player opinions.

I am very happy about jorbs views and not only agree with them but feel they are the way developers should see their games.
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Re: Character Reset: The Word.

Postby Junkfist2 » Tue Jul 28, 2009 3:42 pm

The desire behind a reset wasn't born out of boohooing the lack of a communist utopia, but that the relationship between an oldtimer and new players is so out of balance it stretches credulity. Goons experienced this when one mid-level player decided to wipe us out and our only recourse was :lo.

When you have a world where the divide is that big, it's a problem for growth.

Were there a rebalancing where perhaps 3, 4, 5 few day old characters could give an oldtimer a run for their money I don't think anyone would have asked for a character reset. Unfortunately the "altpocalypse slowdown" was a step in the other direction. New players can't even defend themselves until they grind up a laaaaarge amount of lp.
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Re: Character Reset: The Word.

Postby kobnach » Tue Jul 28, 2009 3:50 pm

Thank you, jorb. Very clearly stated, and if you sticky this, perhaps the debate will stop.
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Re: Character Reset: The Word.

Postby Junkfist2 » Tue Jul 28, 2009 4:06 pm

kobnach wrote:Thank you, jorb. Very clearly stated, and if you sticky this, perhaps the debate will stop.


jorb wrote:By all means keep discussing the issue -- my mind is rarely set on much of anything, and prone to reevaluation.
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Re: Character Reset: The Word.

Postby Yolan » Tue Jul 28, 2009 4:15 pm

The idea of a great sundering interests me. Although, I would like to see it framed as something like a 'tide' of nature gods/spirits making a come back, rather than a world 'reset'. Lets say, like the Ents smashing Saruman's base in the Two Towers. Destruction and havok would assail settlements, perhaps moreso depending on who has had the biggest effect on the environment.

The natural aging and death of characters (once ancestor stuff is in) would also be pretty cool/unique step I think.
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