The game bias: Supporting murder and theft [Resolved]

[Alsehr]

The problem?

I hate to bring it up, because I can tell that a hundred people will be in here yelling about how much they love murder and theft, but I feel like it's an issue that should be addressed, even if it doesn't get changed. In my opinion, the skillset and stats seem to encourage players to murder new players. They encourage vandalism and theft. If you can get high enough stealth and jump to the other side of the worldmap, you're basically given free reign to do whatever you feel like.

I'm not unbiased, because I've only been playing for a short while, but already I've had multiple players harrass, vandalize and threaten murder on my village claim. It's not easy to build an army and defend your claim, either.

When it comes right down to it, the game encourages players to steal and murder. This isn't a problem in and of itself, because a lot of players enjoy this level of immersive PVP, and I don't deny that it's got some perks.

But, anyone living near large settlements full of players who enjoy harrassing can usually do nothing to stop it. For example, AD. When a single person from AD comes and murders someone, you can track them back to AD, but getting justice would take a full blown war. For what is, most of the time, just some villager who was probably farming or keeping to themselves.

I propose: Either tone back crimes in the game so that it's not so easy for someone to murder new players, (And don't start flaming here, I know how much LP it takes to get murder and I got that much in a week. Too easy.)

The truth is that it's too easy to bash a palisade, break into someone's village and murder them without provocation.

Another alternative way to fix this, maybe you could have a second server where theft, vandalism and murder are disabled, sort of an HNH light?

Please, intelligent discussion only. I don't want to hear, "omg, you're a newb because you can't defend yourself from someone with 600 str and q500 equips."

Until HNH can provide an alternative for non-hardcore players, I think I'll be playing a different game until this is ratified. inb4 "farmville lol". Seriously, intelligent discussion only.

[Phizuol]

I would argue just the opposite. H&H is the best game I've ever seen in regard to an implementation of crime with REAL consequences (except in the case of alt vaulting.) In most games the "bad guy" can run to safe areas, simply log off, or otherwise twist game mechanics meant to protect peaceful people into escaping consequences. Not in H&H. No "safe" areas and logging off won't help you. Being a criminal puts the burden on the criminal to avoid punishment. True, being peaceful you COULD be attacked at any time, but being a criminal you PROBABLY will be attacked at any time... EVEN while you're logged off.

Additionally in H&H newbies have real value. It blew my mind the first time I saw top level players treating newbies with real respect and offering them trade deals at their first meeting. A newbie can really contribute, they're more than just entertainment for slaughtering. You can get more by not killing a newbie or even helping them than you'd ever get by killing them.

If anything I would say crime is too hard, and I like it that way. XD Yeah, a group like AD could commit crimes and get away with it because they're too strong to take down without casualties. Well that does suck, but that's how the game works. If you're strong enough you can push people around, but it's not a simple matter of logging off when the "game police" come around. There are plenty of areas in the game that are excessively safe because the big groups actively fight crimes.

[burgingham]

A carebear kind of server probably won't happen, the devs enjoy the whining of slaughtered newbies just too much for this and Open-PVP is a very important part of the games overall design.

The core of your argument is that experienced players hold too much power over new players. Which has been discussed over and over again, only recently in a thread about stat caps. While everyone agrees that the power level shouldn't spread too far in a permadeath game, making new players untouchable is hardly the right answer to it.

I have never really played as a hermit, so maybe I am biased here too, but communities always should have a large advantage over a lonely newb and if this is supposed to stay a real sandbox game then the newbie just willl have to deal with his disadvantage or find a way to level the playing field. Joining a town or building your own faction are the first steps here.

For the palisades, I am myself not quite sure why the devs nerfed the soak with the recent update, there really was no need for that. Still palisades hold decent protection from most low and mid level players, while to be sure no high end faction crushes you, you will just have to get the metal to brickwall yourself in. BUT then the system is flawed from the other direction, siege mechanics and brickwalls prevent any kind of real PvP on a grand scale right now. The major factions will just stare at each other till mapreset.

So while you might think early game is unfair towards you, this is part of the experience you are supposed to go through. It can be harsh and maybe players will quit before they learn how to do things right. I know plenty of examples from hermits played by experienced players that managed to get their settlement fully protected quite fast though and they were never bothered by anybody again. If you really think living around AD is so bad (I have my differences with them too, but they are not as a whole a mindlessly raiding faction and afaik there are not many organized raiders out there, even klaue isn't what he used to be) then you move! There are quite corners at the edge of the world, there are established towns with connections that can keep you safe.

In the end it comes down to wether you want to ensure the safety of a few through limitations for many, when this is a game which is supposed to have as few limitations a possible.

[Onionfighter]

I would say that the two different opinions are probably heavily flavored by home location. Where you live is very important, and your neighbors will affect how your game feels.

Edit: Oh, Burg got in before me. I was referring to the posts before his.

[Alsehr]

Burgingham, I was at the edge of the world. In the northwest corner to be precise, over 9 super grids away from anyone who gives a damn, and it still happened. Claims are worthless with theft on, I can spend 3 weeks making a village with palisade walls, working on my silk trade. And last night, a total stranger from many supergrids east walks up, bashes in the entire wall and steals all of my silk. To put it simply, I don't want to play anymore. You can call my proposition a "Carebare server" but honestly, I wont be the first player to quit because of this kind of unprovoked harassment. I'm not demanding a game change. I'm suggesting it out of concern for the player base. At least allow players to opt out of this kind of thing, or they'll simply opt out of playing the game altogether.

[Onionfighter]

Jorb had some great reasons why a "carebare" server would not work (and besides the fact that they just don't want that kind of game). Could someone else link to them?

[Potjeh]

Any kind of newbie protection would be abused to high heavens.

[Onionfighter]

Here we go: viewtopic.php?f=7&t=4840&p=55705
Anyone who hasn't read this should. It's good stuff!

[Seren_Elder]

Well, i support murder and theft.

After giving me MANY MANY threats, it is a nice punishment for not keeping on alert and protecting your walls

besides, without murder or theft, we'd have rage and such

now then, how would we deal with vandalism, which is what you are getting worked up about

being able to murder without consequence is a privellige to the people who work on building large villages and survive.

However alot of people knew your location

If we didnt have murder, the only way to kill someone is waste a few minutes assaulting someone with a decent thing

Without theft, what if somebody had unclaimed stuff upon moving, how would you get it back from a band of thiefs with a roundpole fence, THEFT

[Alsehr]

Well, i support murder and theft.

After giving me MANY MANY threats, it is a nice punishment for not keeping on alert and protecting your walls

besides, without murder or theft, we'd have rage and such

now then, how would we deal with vandalism, which is what you are getting worked up about

being able to murder without consequence is a privellige to the people who work on building large villages and survive.

However alot of people knew your location

If we didnt have murder, the only way to kill someone is waste a few minutes assaulting someone with a decent thing

Without theft, what if somebody had unclaimed stuff upon moving, how would you get it back from a band of thiefs with a roundpole fence, THEFT

You're obviously the one responsible. Stop following me around you jackass, I never did anything to you. You threatened to murder people in my village and stole things from me. If anyone deserves murder, it's you.

In response to the dev's reason for not allowing a 'carebear' world, Sure, it all sounds very intelligent, but honestly, it has no link to the actual game. He defines standing on ground as a non peaceful action because people can't plow there? If you can't tresspass on a claim, then how can you block someone from plowing? I'm sorry, but I just don't buy it. Also, seren: Go die. I'll find another game to play.