Developer Thoughts on PvP

Thoughts on the further development of Haven & Hearth? Feel free to opine!

Re: Developer Thoughts on PvP

Postby Arcanist » Sat Mar 22, 2014 8:24 am

Sirius234 wrote:Maybe you could have the option of enabling pvp in the menu??


There is, it's called criminal acts.
It just has the downside that if others turn on criminal acts, they are free to pvp you.
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Re: Developer Thoughts on PvP

Postby Lord_of_War » Sat Mar 22, 2014 8:25 am

No he is far more retarded. He wants to opt out of PvP.
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Re: Developer Thoughts on PvP

Postby Nolidor » Sat May 24, 2014 4:38 pm

Dumb game.

I read the OP, and it never explains why the first 12 hours shouldn't be protected. It only talks about the general aspect of PvP.

PvP is nice when people become developed. There's a difference between snuffing someone's candle out versus blasting off a firework show...

...but when you say newcomers are exposed to getting ransacked and destroyed such that they can't develop a reliable foundation, you expose people to becoming successful out of luck instead of skill. In other words, they don't really relate with success. Success primarily becomes a matter of external circumstance instead of internal commitment. This is especially true since everyone in the gameworld doesn't join at the same time. Players who are lucky enough to find and join the game earlier become able to grief those who are unlucky to find and join the game later. This is something which has nothing to do with skill whatsoever, and deserves no consequence.

The argument about a "small enough effort" is garbage. What's small enough is subjective, and it ignores the objective principle of commitment. I mean if you want to talk about realism and how "the air is free" is an unrealistic game, then let's also consider the unrealistic nature of how people don't consent to join the world. In turn, they're entitled by default to protection of their childhood in compensation of the coercion naturally endured. To ignore this is to just pick and choose when you want to have a realistic interpretation.

On the other hand, I'd have to say the OP is naive about the interpretation of personal versus natural space. Claiming natural space is not an offensive action. What's natural is nobody's, not everybody's. If anything, the OP's equivocation between personal and natural space could be made AGAINST PvP, but again, PvP is fun. It's just not fun when you have no reliable foundation to develop with.

Furthermore, you shouldn't even have a reliable player base to ransack or destroy in the first place since the lack of reliable foundations should discourage people from bothering to play to begin with. If Yeomanry wasn't so expensive, this wouldn't be such an issue, but it is. On top of that, the chance of you finding a random ranger to help you out in the beginning is slim to none. Even advertising on the forum is hopeless since you have no coordinate system to rally help towards.

It's no wonder your community is so small, and I wouldn't be surprised to see it fail into the future. Newcomers are discouraged, and oldtimers will get bored. You've put luck before skill which just isn't relatable unless you're emotionally riled by chaos, and even then, chaos has to be sustainable. Even a fire needs fuel to breathe. Yes, fire is fun, but your fire is burning itself out.

All and all...

...meh.
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Re: Developer Thoughts on PvP

Postby Nolidor » Sat May 24, 2014 5:26 pm

Gorbane wrote:Selfish capitalist pigs. . . Trying to attain resources for personal gain?
They then go on to complain that they are being "mistreated" in their wimpy nature.


If anyone's a selfish capitalist, it's those who plunder others by stealing their wealth instead of being openminded to how everyone's a person in society who deserves to be treated with respect.

It's called rugged individualism for a reason, you know? Capitalist ideals might be deontological, but in practice, they're very utilitarian. If you think capitalists have a "wimpy nature", then you're obviously only talking with academics and not actual businessmen.

If anything, you might want to relate with those academics because if they were in charge of capitalism, then the system wouldn't be so exploitative.
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Re: Developer Thoughts on PvP

Postby AnnaC » Sat May 24, 2014 8:49 pm

Nolidor wrote:Dumb game.

I read the OP, and it never explains why the first 12 hours shouldn't be protected. It only talks about the general aspect of PvP.

Because that's an arbitary restriction to coddle players unnecessarily. If you're killed or raided in your first 12 hours you haven't lost anything that isn't easily recoverable. First off, people assume the timescale of play in this game is something it's not. There is no instant gratification for resources and development; real time and logistical planning needs to be invested to make anything worthwhile in the Hearthlands, something that is interesting about it and sets it apart from other games. About the protection for the "first 12 hours", well that's again arbitrary and unnecessary, and it also allows such young hearthlings power to do potentially destructive economic tasks while under this protection (as it is using fresh new hearthlings en-masse had been used to great effect in sieges before).

PvP is nice when people become developed. There's a difference between snuffing someone's candle out versus blasting off a firework show...

...but when you say newcomers are exposed to getting ransacked and destroyed such that they can't develop a reliable foundation, you expose people to becoming successful out of luck instead of skill. In other words, they don't really relate with success. Success primarily becomes a matter of external circumstance instead of internal commitment. This is especially true since everyone in the gameworld doesn't join at the same time. Players who are lucky enough to find and join the game earlier become able to grief those who are unlucky to find and join the game later. This is something which has nothing to do with skill whatsoever, and deserves no consequence.

The only "luck" is where you intitially spawn, and that can be easily changed unless you've spawned on a small island with few resources (as swimming early on is dangerous). Success is all about internal commitment and logistical planning, something you obviously don't have as you assume a much shorter timescale than actually occurs in the gameworld (an instant gratification baby).

The argument about a "small enough effort" is garbage. What's small enough is subjective, and it ignores the objective principle of commitment. I mean if you want to talk about realism and how "the air is free" is an unrealistic game, then let's also consider the unrealistic nature of how people don't consent to join the world. In turn, they're entitled by default to protection of their childhood in compensation of the coercion naturally endured. To ignore this is to just pick and choose when you want to have a realistic interpretation.

It's easy to survive as a new hearthling because you're not tied to any specific location or resource, so it's easy to stay hidden and obscure. Obscurity is your first and always present line of defense, and always will be. Even with brickwalls and warriors, not being in a place an enemy knows or goes to will always be the best defense. I lived in leantos and fenced gardens spread out across the wilderness for almost a month this world without incident. If you want the child aspect, join a faction that takes in newbies, there is that option. The point is the game itself does not hold your hand or expect you to be it's child; sure players can do this, and unfortunately the community of recent worlds has continually grown less likely to do so, but the game itself should never have to do this through mechanics. This isn't a themepark mmo.

On the other hand, I'd have to say the OP is naive about the interpretation of personal versus natural space. Claiming natural space is not an offensive action. What's natural is nobody's, not everybody's. If anything, the OP's equivocation between personal and natural space could be made AGAINST PvP, but again, PvP is fun. It's just not fun when you have no reliable foundation to develop with.

Claiming "natural space" is an offensive action because it's an action that denies another another player a potential action or resource. You're the one extremely naive about everything about this subject, to be honest.

Furthermore, you shouldn't even have a reliable player base to ransack or destroy in the first place since the lack of reliable foundations should discourage people from bothering to play to begin with. If Yeomanry wasn't so expensive, this wouldn't be such an issue, but it is. On top of that, the chance of you finding a random ranger to help you out in the beginning is slim to none. Even advertising on the forum is hopeless since you have no coordinate system to rally help towards.

Yeomanry isn't expensive compared to the ridiculous power claimed terrain has. Personal claims have been overpowered as hell since the curio system (one of the actual downsides to the curio system). Also there is a coordinate system, havenmap.sabinati.com :D

It's no wonder your community is so small, and I wouldn't be surprised to see it fail into the future. Newcomers are discouraged, and oldtimers will get bored. You've put luck before skill which just isn't relatable unless you're emotionally riled by chaos, and even then, chaos has to be sustainable. Even a fire needs fuel to breathe. Yes, fire is fun, but your fire is burning itself out.

All and all...

...meh.

Usually I'm nice to newbies, but cry more.
Hearthlings: Marona; Chamberlain (retainer alt), Vincavec (shaman of the Dryad Wells Forest)
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Re: Developer Thoughts on PvP

Postby Nolidor » Sun May 25, 2014 3:41 am

AnnaC wrote:Because that's an arbitary restriction to coddle players unnecessarily. If you're killed or raided in your first 12 hours you haven't lost anything that isn't easily recoverable. First off, people assume the timescale of play in this game is something it's not. There is no instant gratification for resources and development; real time and logistical planning needs to be invested to make anything worthwhile in the Hearthlands, something that is interesting about it and sets it apart from other games. About the protection for the "first 12 hours", well that's again arbitrary and unnecessary, and it also allows such young hearthlings power to do potentially destructive economic tasks while under this protection (as it is using fresh new hearthlings en-masse had been used to great effect in sieges before).


The first 12 hours was a phrase used in the OP. Obviously, it's an arbitrary amount of time, but it has symbolic qualitative value.

On the other hand, you refer to not losing anything that isn't easily recoverable. Why are you understanding the subjectivity of context somewhere, but insisting on the objectivity of it somewhere else?

I agree that young hearthlings could become powerful, but it could be restricted what they could do.

The only "luck" is where you intitially spawn, and that can be easily changed unless you've spawned on a small island with few resources (as swimming early on is dangerous). Success is all about internal commitment and logistical planning, something you obviously don't have as you assume a much shorter timescale than actually occurs in the gameworld (an instant gratification baby).


Yes, you can switch one die roll for another. :-\

People have lives to live as well. This is a game. When you work 8 hours a day, spend time at home, and have other social and personal hobbies, you don't relate with losing a couple hours of your time in a game to some advanced player who just enjoys sabotaging newcomers.

I mean if you want to talk about work ethic, get a life.

It's easy to survive as a new hearthling because you're not tied to any specific location or resource, so it's easy to stay hidden and obscure. Obscurity is your first and always present line of defense, and always will be. Even with brickwalls and warriors, not being in a place an enemy knows or goes to will always be the best defense. I lived in leantos and fenced gardens spread out across the wilderness for almost a month this world without incident. If you want the child aspect, join a faction that takes in newbies, there is that option. The point is the game itself does not hold your hand or expect you to be it's child; sure players can do this, and unfortunately the community of recent worlds has continually grown less likely to do so, but the game itself should never have to do this through mechanics. This isn't a themepark mmo.


The game isn't about survival. It's about development. If people just wanted to survive, they could... do nothing. That's a pretty easy way to remain obscure too.

Factions would be nice... if that part of the forum actually worked.

Claiming "natural space" is an offensive action because it's an action that denies another another player a potential action or resource. You're the one extremely naive about everything about this subject, to be honest.


You can't deny what doesn't exist. Personal potential only exists in a person until it is acted in nature.

Yeomanry isn't expensive compared to the ridiculous power claimed terrain has. Personal claims have been overpowered as hell since the curio system (one of the actual downsides to the curio system). Also there is a coordinate system, havenmap.sabinati.com


I dunno how it works, but I'm assuming there's some growth element to it? The more you claim, the harder it becomes to claim more?

That map is hopeless too. You have to scan an entire graphic to find where you are to extreme detail.
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Re: Developer Thoughts on PvP

Postby Ninijutsu » Sun May 25, 2014 3:52 am

Nolidor wrote:I dunno how it works, but I'm assuming there's some growth element to it? The more you claim, the harder it becomes to claim more?


No. That's not how it works at all. How about you actually learn about the basic concepts of the game and then you can argue that the fundamental system under which it operates is suffering from the flaws you claim upon it (which it isn't).
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Re: Developer Thoughts on PvP

Postby Resylencia » Sun May 25, 2014 4:56 am

Ok. As a new player, I have been watching these new posts, debating If I even wanted to tempt a response because I think I will get back lash from it. I wish people had a bit more of an open mind of how different people see the game differently. I joined this game as I saw it as a more adult version of Animal Crossings. Yes, I loved that game, but needed something a bit more complex which this game offered: getting established, making a home, fishing, making gear etc. Once I got those things established, I looked forward to encountering new people, fighting for things etc. From the perspective of a new comer though, for someone to say, "Oh as a newcomer if you get ransacked..its ok, as these things are easily replaceable," is very discouraging. It doesn't feel great to spend a day getting things established, waking up and see everything was gone. Getting up the next day, doing the same and BAM, getting ransacked again only adds insult to injury.
Please tell me how must someone progress in this game. Do people continually make new characters till they get lucky enough to spawn in a "lucky" spot where they will not be found? Things take time which is precious. It might not be precious enough to you, but it can still be precious enough to others.
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Re: Developer Thoughts on PvP

Postby Nolidor » Sun May 25, 2014 4:59 am

Ninijutsu wrote:
Nolidor wrote:I dunno how it works, but I'm assuming there's some growth element to it? The more you claim, the harder it becomes to claim more?


No. That's not how it works at all. How about you actually learn about the basic concepts of the game and then you can argue that the fundamental system under which it operates is suffering from the flaws you claim upon it (which it isn't).


If that's not there, then that would create a problem in the game. It would let old players expand to the point of squishing new players out.

I was giving the game the benefit of the doubt of not being problematic. Jeez.
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Re: Developer Thoughts on PvP

Postby Ninijutsu » Sun May 25, 2014 5:07 am

Nolidor wrote:If that's not there, then that would create a problem in the game. It would let old players expand to the point of squishing new players out.

I was giving the game the benefit of the doubt of not being problematic. Jeez.


AnnaC wrote:Yeomanry isn't expensive compared to the ridiculous power claimed terrain has. Personal claims have been overpowered as hell since the curio system (one of the actual downsides to the curio system).


There are pros and cons to everything.
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