Life and Death and Karma

[Kaitie]

I briefly kind of touched on this in my introduction thread, and I'm relatively new to HnH so I don't mean to step on any toes.... I've read a lot of the discussions about PKing and murder and Jorb wanting to keep HnH similar to real life in those aspects without confining them, and I agree with that. The question a lot of people proposed was, "How do we get more socializing and more trust in other people playing the game?" (that's paraphrased, btw). I've been involved in some RPG multiplayer game designs, nothing that really ever went very far due to lack of dedication from other people...
... but, I think the answer to the question above with a really simple implementation (coming from a programming view point) might be "Karma" for players and Hearthlings.

How Karma could (conceivably work in HnH): While you are online and not performing any criminal acts your karma raises every so many ticks toward white. So, those people who are not committing crimes, acts of violence, etc, their karma is constantly rising so they become 'good' in nature while those who commit criminal acts lose swaths of karma based on evil acts and their karma goes black; the worse the crime, the more karma loss. Of course, keep in mind, nobody, not even the player themselves will know where their karma stands.... it's just a secret, internal counter which flips positive/negative based on behavior. This karma would have zero affect on gameplay itself; it neither helps nor hinders a player while they are alive... it would be almost as if karma did not exist at all.

So, what could karma do to curtail bad behaviors?

When a black karma (evil) person dies, they reincarnate with less LP based on their evil karma count. The more evil the character, the less LP will carry over from their old Hearthling to their new. Meanwhile, white karma (virtuous) characters would not have any more LP loss than normal. What this does, it makes being 'evil' a little more riskier business without actually stopping anyone from choosing to be evil. And, when a person chooses to be evil, they take a higher risk than someone choosing to be good. This won't stop those who really want to be evil, but there is that price to be paid if they get caught and killed.

This one little addition would promote trust, socializing, all while maintaining the option to be just as cruel and evil as you want to be.

Opinions, comments, etc?

[Phaen]

There's already a penalty for criminal acts: your character is vulnerable to being tracked and killed. People who use criminal acts aren't necessarily evil-aligned either. Sure, there are people who murder randomly along the river. But there are also rangers who track and kill such people. There are also people simply defending themselves or their friends or their homes. There are people looting abandoned ruins. Criminal acts are not Evil they are simply Risky Behavior.

[Kaitie]

There's already a penalty for criminal acts: your character is vulnerable to being tracked and killed. People who use criminal acts aren't necessarily evil-aligned either. Sure, there are people who murder randomly along the river. But there are also rangers who track and kill such people. There are also people simply defending themselves or their friends or their homes. There are people looting abandoned ruins. Criminal acts are not Evil they are simply Risky Behavior.

But, the question is, do you feel this promotes community and cooperation?

After reading a lot (and I mean a lot) of threads, I get the feel there's more mistrust than trust in every situation, even just making friends, even in the long term; and does that do a game like HnH justice?
Does that attract people to HnN, or turn them off from it?
With such very low population numbers and the very huge world size is risky behavior even really all that risky, at all?
Or, are criminal acts really likely to be more rewarding than risky?

There's a "Personal Belief" system, which I notice people slide towards "peaceful" to help LP up their character quicker, but what checks and balances are there to make sure a person really aligns themselves to these virtual beliefs? It's looking like an unnecessary mechanic someone just uses to level up before going on a theft and killing spree; for instance, they can set themselves to peaceful, yet perform acts without consequence which specifically go against their personal beliefs such as peaceful or civilized and without personal penalty, etc. This doesn't make sense in a world where you are trying to duplicate a sense of reality, per se, as more than 'choice' motivates behavior.

HnH seems to push people toward risky behavior over rewarding good behavior; in real life, we have conscience and guilt which helps keep people from becoming criminals... which doesn't really translate well into a game, and I've read Jorb himself said he wants the world to be somewhat based on realism and its actions/consequences, but what game mechanic is there to represent the conscience or guilt of a character based on their personal beliefs, etc? What motivates them more than "oh, it's just a game, so there's no personal consequences, even if I die from a vengeance killing".

Just some thoughts, really.

[parisparisparis]

When a black karma (evil) person dies, they reincarnate with less LP based on their evil karma count. The more evil the character, the less LP will carry over from their old Hearthling to their new. Meanwhile, white karma (virtuous) characters would not have any more LP loss than normal. What this does, it makes being 'evil' a little more riskier business without actually stopping anyone from choosing to be evil. And, when a person chooses to be evil, they take a higher risk than someone choosing to be good. This won't stop those who really want to be evil, but there is that price to be paid if they get caught and killed.

NO NO NO your idea is game breaking. you say this won't harm the gameplay but indeed it will. you want to put a penalty one playing style. And glorify the other one. In MY opinion we should do completely opposite. we should ban completely the good and bad definitions. Criminal acts should not be criminal at all. Sure they should have tracks and scents, but i think every action , be it killing or walking in the forest leave scents.


iIf you want a friendly and safe place go to a village. it is much safer.

Marking people for who their are (evil, good) is discrimination. leave this stuff in real life i play games to escape...


sorry for rant i just really like hnh ...

[Arcanist]

I sort of agree with paris.

It would be cool to see if, in the last hour or so, anyone has walked in the forrest. But those tracks should be of a completely different sort, not the triangle on the ground, but more of a line where people have walked, so they should stop completely when said person enters a boat or swims. Ofcourse also based on int*stealth and per*explore

[Amanda44]

Hi Kaitie,

Yes, there are trust issues, it's a permadeath game! However, it's not as bad a thing as you seem to imagine, it's part of the excitement side of the game, either as a raider and even in being raided, which in it's turn brings people together.

People have the choice to play how they want to, we don't all want the same things out of the game and thats part of what makes this game what it is. As Phaen says, there are already consequences to your actions, both in-game and beyond, into the community. How is that not realistic? There is also a strong social network in this game because of that.

There are huge factions and villages, along with small groups and hermits, and a whole chain of allies and enemies, lol, when you have been here a while you will see that.
If anything the 'criminals' bring people together and encourage social interaction.

It can seem a bit hostile to newcomers, I can understand that, and yes, there are people who like to raid and murder but overall there is a lot more to this game than fear and mistrust and believe me, there is a thriving social community.

Welcome to HnH

P.s. The game had been experiencing severe problems with lag shortly before your arrival, combined with various bugs and exploits, these are some of the reasons for the low player count, which is now steadily rising again, though I get how you see it in a comparritive sense.

[borka]

There are huge factions and villages, along with small groups and hermits, and a whole chain of allies and enemies, lol, when you have been here a while you will see that.
If anything the 'criminals' bring people together and encourage social interaction.

Do not read this sentence wrong pls - you don't need to be an ally or an enemy - a lot of villages and hermits keep neutral even when having friendly relations with ppl of factions that are enemies to each other - best example i think of is Eem with Emerald City

[DDDsDD999]

In MY opinion we should do completely opposite. we should ban completely the good and bad definitions.

Jorb feels the same way. That's why summoning criminals still leaves scents. Might be tough to get him to allow tracking for even walking and such though.

[Patchouli_Knowledge]

I think what sums it up is that machines and structured codes are not exactly designed to encompass human morality. How would it know if the theft is from a person that stole something back because he forgot to make a claim or even killing in self defense (for the record, KOing someone that attacks you does not leave scents but killing them does)? Even trespassing a greedy giant claim will leave a scent (though trespass in not summonable).

[Saxony4]

Good - Bad, the guy with the sword makes the rules