Coronavirus

[Burinn]

lol the denial is insane. For months now people have been sounding the alarm on this, that it is worse than influenza, that it is a big deal. And now that it's in your neighbors house you're still accusing the world of overreacting and people making shit up just to scare people. Baffling.

[shubla]

Which is my point: are the medical facts behind what is actually happening really warranting the turning of free countries into somehing from a dystopy movie?

In a modern society you cannot just stand still and do nothing when something like this happens. For influenza there are vaccines for risk groups etc. countries have the capacity to treat people suffering from serious influenza complications etc. But with coronavirus one of the big problems is capacity of hospitals to treat everyone, if it spreads widely and rapidly (and as I said, requires hospital treatment way more often then influenza).

Coronavirus also shows how badly prepared countries are for events like this. Think about if coronavirus was even more deadly than what it currently is. Results wouldn't be good. (For example, FInland has stopped testing people for coronavirus (except those that are in hospital) because we are unable to manufacture or order enough test kits)

Normal influenza does NOT bring normal people into ventilators, except in very very rare cases, but coronavirus seems to do this a lot more often.

How have you obtained that knowledge, do you have some links to papers that show this causation?

I have not read any papers about it, but I have read quite a few news from multiple, reputable sources, which all imply this.
Of course, one big problem is that there really aren't that many papers about it. No one still knows exactly how it spreads, how long it can survive outside the body, how deadly it is for certain groups, could it mutate etc.

Have you read the news at all? Many countries are having issues with treating the patients because there are just so many that require treatment, resulting in lack of equipment and personnel.

[Burinn]

I have not read any papers about it, but I have read quite a few news from multiple, reputable sources, which all imply this.
Have you read the news at all? Many countries are having issues with treating the patients because there are just so many that require treatment, resulting in lack of equipment and personnel.

Shhh Shubla. The triage in Italian hospitals is liberal fake news that's trying to stop Trump from getting re-elected. Shhhh.

[AtoB]

And now that it's in your neighbors house you're still accusing the world of overreacting and people making shit up just to scare people. Baffling.

Let's see, from https://www.ecdc.europa.eu/en/novel-cor ... ns-answers we have

Preliminary findings indicate that the mortality rate for COVID-19 is 20-30 per thousand people diagnosed. This is significantly less than the 2003 SARS outbreak.

I don't remember daily life coming to an end in 2003, do you?

Which is my point: are the medical facts behind what is actually happening really warranting the turning of free countries into somehing from a dystopy movie?

In a modern society you cannot just stand still and do nothing when something like this happens.

Why not? We (as in here in Germany) blissfully ignore estimated 20,000 yearly deaths from this shit which would be preventable without shutting down civilization should someone put their mind to it... or the estimated 8 million worldwide per year where death is caused by smoking (a fair share of them from second hand smoke) according to WHO... and we still don't care. As we can happily stand still and do nothing in these cases, why should we be compelled to do something special for a flu strain that isn't even that deadly?

For influenza there are vaccines for risk groups etc. countries have the capacity to treat people suffering from serious influenza complications etc. But with coronavirus one of the big problems is capacity of hospitals to treat everyone, if it spreads widely and rapidly (and as I said, requires hospital treatment way more often then influenza).

Really?

From https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/ ... vs-the-flu we have

Infections
COVID-19: Approximately 207,518 cases worldwide; 7,324 cases in the U.S. as of Mar. 18, 2020.*
Flu: Estimated 1 billion cases worldwide; 9.3 million to 45 million cases in the U.S. per year.

So we have about four orders of magnitude more cases of flue,

Deaths
COVID-19: Approximately 8,248 deaths reported worldwide; 115 deaths in the U.S., as of Mar. 18, 2020.*
Flu: 291,000 to 646,000 deaths worldwide; 12,000 to 61,000 deaths in the U.S. per year.

and about three orders of magnitude less total deaths. While these numbers looks 'in favour' of corona (higher ratio of deaths/infections) the reported number of infected is likely as of not enough tests way below reality, so adjusting that to what really is would even Corona out with 'Flu' when it comes to death / infection (or even put it way behind, but we'll learn about that when the dust has settled and people start to sum up things calmly).

I still fail to see something special that warrants turning open democracies into what behaves more like a dictatorship.

And regarding argument about not enough resources in hospitals: the usual stance on this forum is gid gud, isn't it?

[Burinn]

Let's see, from https://www.ecdc.europa.eu/en/novel-cor ... ns-answers we have

Preliminary findings indicate that the mortality rate for COVID-19 is 20-30 per thousand people diagnosed. This is significantly less than the 2003 SARS outbreak.

I don't remember daily life coming to an end in 2003, do you?

You just proved our point. The mortality rate is lower but SARS was contained and will have had orders of magnitude fewer infections than COVID-19 will.

[MagicManICT]

For influenza there are vaccines for risk groups etc.

For those countries that have the funds, they just tell everyone that is medically capable of getting a flu vaccine should get it. I'm not too wild about it, but a shot that costs me little and keeps me from spending 2-5x as much at a doctor, not to mention prescription costs, is an advantage. Let's not forget the other costs of getting the flu such as being out of work (stupid US without mandated paid sick leave).

are the medical facts behind what is actually happening really warranting the turning of free countries into somehing from a dystopy movie?

Has there been time for any of this to be written up into a journal, or are all the doctors and researches involved in it too busy doing their job to take the time to blog about it? An absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence. I'm sure if you were to travel to Italy with medical credentials as a volunteer to help with their outbreak, they'd give you a tour of the hospitals... minus such credentials, though, they'd probably deny you so that there isn't a risk of spreading it.

As far as the smoking* and other health issues... I quite agree. We should do something about it, but we don't. Difference between a spreading virus and smoking related deaths is immediacy. Let's say 70% is the correct number for world-wide infections. That's about 5 billion people after all is said and done. Let's go with somewhere around 3% mortality rate, that puts it around 150 million dead... in about 12 to 18 months for this thing to take its course. Also to note, if this thing does get that out of hand, you'll see the death rate skyrocket as the medical systems of the nations will be overwhelmed. It may get as high a 7-10%. See the difference? See why everyone wants to quarantine now? (I'll note that from a purely outside observer POV, that wouldn't be a terrible thing for the planet, but as a human... seems pretty terrible.) The last pandemic that came close to this was the Spanish Flu outbreak about a century ago.

*When it comes to things like smoking, even eating habits, it's hard to control this from a government point of view. If you take a hard line on it, such at the "War on Drugs," you just end up with a full prison system and a destitute population. People will get what they want no matter what laws are in place preventing it.

[shubla]

And now that it's in your neighbors house you're still accusing the world of overreacting and people making shit up just to scare people. Baffling.

Let's see, from https://www.ecdc.europa.eu/en/novel-cor ... ns-answers we have

Preliminary findings indicate that the mortality rate for COVID-19 is 20-30 per thousand people diagnosed. This is significantly less than the 2003 SARS outbreak.

I don't remember daily life coming to an end in 2003, do you?

Sars had 8000 cases in total.
Coronavirus currently has "at least" 200 000, (well most likely millions because countries like india probably do not diagnose them at all etc. some countries only diagnose most severe cases)
It doesn't only matter if mortality is 50% or 5%, infectivity also matters, perhaps even more than mortality.
If the sars was more infectious, I am sure that it would have led to the same decisions from countries, that corona has, or worse.

But what am I saying, of course you know better what countries should be doing, than experts etc. who make these decisions

smoking, diseases transmitted in hospitals

Comparing these things is idiotic. They are completely different. Kind of like comparing coronavirus to space rockets, whats the point.

---
And you are still saying that flu causes as many deaths as coronavirus and overall would be similar to influenza, but this is not the case.
Hospitals in epidemic areas full of coronavirus patients, and not influenza patients!
One reason why coronavirus is "only" this deadly, is because people are being treated well. Without treatment the number of deaths would be multiple times more than what it currently is.
(non acute) Surgeries and treatments are being cancelled to treat people with coronavirus, so they wouldn't die because of it.
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"free countries" are not turning into dystopies.
They are trying to protect the people, that is exactly what governments should do. Most people are angry because governments are not enforcing the limits strictly enough, but instead, just giving suggestions.
---

TLdr: you are stupid if you don't get why coronavirus is a big deal when compared to influenza, even one site that you linked had an explanation for why they are not the same, but you like to cherry pick those words that you like from things that you read, and refuse to change your opinion even if facts would suggest you to, what is point in reading anything if you are not ready to change your opinions based on things that you read

-----
Today I finally went outside, and one could indeed see that something is out of place.
Not that many people on the streets, most stores were closed. Bus drivers refuse to open front door(which is usually used for entering a bus in finland) and let people in and out through the middle door (without checking their tickets). Some products in store were not on shelves. Like crispbread, Finnish frozen berries(you can eat them right from the fridge, while foreign berries are said to contain diseases etc. and suggestion is to boil them before using), bread, chicken eggs, some chocolate bars etc. Most only temporarily (I saw some new products wrapped in plastic waiting for shelves in pallets), but some perhaps for a longer time (like the finnish frozen berries, if everybody buys their freezers FULL of them, we may run out of them until the next berry season). And sadly, this is only the beginning (or then people stop going to stores because they have so large stockpiles and everything will be on discount, who knows).

Overall I think that it is interesting time that we are living in, no one knows how long this continues, for weeks? months? perhaps years until the vaccine is developed? Probably not the latter one. And how will the world change (if) after the epidemic is over and people realize how dependent and vulnerable countries are due to globalization etc. Or maybe nothing will change and we are back to old in few months, we'll see.

It is quite interesting though. For a long time, in countries like Finland, you have only read about bad things happening around the world. War, natural catastrophes, famine, they've all been in headlines forever. But often these things do not affect your daily life in any way whatsoever, but the corona is different. Something that really changes people's daily lives.

[Jalpha]

Bus drivers only opening the middle door! No tickets required!

That's nothing. In Australia the police stopped doing random breath tests! Drink driving is a go!

[MagicManICT]

For those that think "I'm too young to get this and get sick!" https://a.msn.com/r/2/BB11nGEB?m=en-us& ... InAppShare

[MagicManICT]

Sorry for the double post, but thought I'd share this story about the 1918 Spanish Flu posted on my local news service (originally from the CNN new services; no source link was provided that I could see).

http://www.kake.com/story/41897252/phil ... evastating

Hope everyone can see it.