The Ghost of Christmas Future, II

[jordancoles]

Alright, name me some realistic, game changing advantages said groups with secret clients have over all other players. Stuff that actualy affects the competition in an impactful way.

Night-vision, double-tap combat, bot support, client optimization allowing for more clients to be open at one time*, multi-account login, pathfinding, map radar, object highlighting, long-clicks that go thousands of tiles in length, macros built into the client for various things.... the list goes on and on and on and on and it basically just translates into you getting shit on if you're not in the inner circle that is pumping out the client and the mods.

If you're arguing that custom clients won't abuse every possible meta out there then you're basically retarded

*Look at my signature pic

[Felkin]

Alright, name me some realistic, game changing advantages said groups with secret clients have over all other players. Stuff that actualy affects the competition in an impactful way.

Night-vision, double-tap combat, bot support, client optimization allowing for more clients to be open at one time*, multi-account login, pathfinding, map radar, object highlighting, long-clicks that go thousands of tiles in length, macros built into the client for various things.... the list goes on and on and on and on and it basically just translates into you getting shit on if you're not in the inner circle that is pumping out the client and the mods.

If you're arguing that custom clients won't abuse every possible meta out there then you're basically retarded

*Look at my signature pic

You gave points that are either in Enders, which I used as an example of a client that could be made by the community to replace the main one officialy OR bot/alt centric ones that I've already argued against for being a buffer to a completely different problem.

Let's get one point clear here : enchanting bots with the client is not an issue of exploiting server data, but rather simple botting. Botting is a COMPLETELY seperate, uncombatable problem. What we are discussing are ways to stop custom clients from giving unfair advantages, not BOTS. A custom client is made to give a player more data, than wanted by the developers or presenting it in an easier fashion. I argued that this can be fixed by just having the dedicated modder community we have find all the flaws in the one jorbtar come up with and then replace them. Bottings/alts are not a problem tied to custom clients, leave that out of this discussion. If you want to now discuss bots - sure, I'm ready to give points on that topic too.

[Kaios]

It's all relative I'd say, unless the overall dynamic changes at the root (the root being Loftar), all of these issues are going to continue to occur and probably only get worse.

[TeckXKnight]

I'm fairly certain double tap combat has never been included in public clients, actually.

[Felkin]

I'm fairly certain double tap combat has never been included in public clients, actually.

I'm not aware of how that works, care to elaborate?

[Kaios]

Also,

Bottings/alts are not a problem tied to custom clients, leave that out of this discussion. If you want to now discuss bots - sure, I'm ready to give points on that topic too.

They are in a sense though. If a custom client didn't offer you that choice and make it so easy in the form of scripts built directly in to the client I would say it'd be far less of a problem than it is now. Still a problem, just less of one. A public client that includes these features should be something that was never allowed in the first place.

[jordancoles]

Alright, name me some realistic, game changing advantages said groups with secret clients have over all other players. Stuff that actualy affects the competition in an impactful way.

Night-vision, double-tap combat, bot support, client optimization allowing for more clients to be open at one time*, multi-account login, pathfinding, map radar, object highlighting, long-clicks that go thousands of tiles in length, macros built into the client for various things.... the list goes on and on and on and on and it basically just translates into you getting shit on if you're not in the inner circle that is pumping out the client and the mods.

If you're arguing that custom clients won't abuse every possible meta out there then you're basically retarded

*Look at my signature pic

You gave points that are either in Enders, which I used as an example of a client that could be made by the community to replace the main one officialy OR bot/alt centric ones that I've already argued against for being a buffer to a completely different problem.

Let's get one point clear here : enchanting bots with the client is not an issue of exploiting server data, but rather simple botting. Botting is a COMPLETELY seperate, uncombatable problem. What we are discussing are ways to stop custom clients from giving unfair advantages, not BOTS. A custom client is made to give a player more data, than wanted by the developers or presenting it in an easier fashion. I argued that this can be fixed by just having the dedicated modder community we have find all the flaws in the one jorbtar come up with and then replace them. Bottings/alts are not a problem tied to custom clients, leave that out of this discussion. If you want to now discuss bots - sure, I'm ready to give points on that topic too.

Up until about half way through world 7 custom clients were hidden from the general public. Enders was as basic as it came and it did not have player radar.
Thanks to Xcom these things are available to the general public but in world 6 (before the lag and before union was made public because the game was basically dead) only 4-5 English-speakers actually had access to union client and the bots that went along with it.

By saying that bots aren't an unfair advantage you are saying that leaving 12 clients open with characters on each that are doing a repetitive task overnight while the person sleeps is not an advantage when compared to someone who has to do the task by hand and on one character at a time.

Custom clients will always be a thing, bots will always be made, and the really "good" bots and client-side exploits will always be hidden away.

When Hafen starts out, there will be one "good" Ender-like custom client that everyone is using because for whatever reason Loftar is incapable of making a user-friendly default client regardless of the time given to him to make one.
Shortly after that client is released and people get an idea for what they would want in their own private custom client, one or two new clients will be made by each faction and they will abuse every meta possible. These clients will not be made public.
That's the part where you start to get shit-on by big factions with good clients.

[Felkin]

Also,

Bottings/alts are not a problem tied to custom clients, leave that out of this discussion. If you want to now discuss bots - sure, I'm ready to give points on that topic too.

They are in a sense though. If a custom client didn't offer you that choice and make it so easy in the form of scripts built directly in to the client I would say it'd be far less of a problem than it is now. Still a problem, just less of one. A public client that includes these features should be something that was never allowed in the first place.

I do agree, that public clients with inbuilt scripts pose a big problem by giving more access. Such stuff should just be instantly nuked out of the forums. Everything that has to do with botting is just a problem that only good game design can fix. Bots can and always will be a thing, because people are lazy and making one is not really hard. Don't know a single game that was bottable and managed to actualy combat the issue outside of lowering the incentive to bot in the first place.

With that I've now given my views on progression, alts, custom clients and now bots. Gime moar!

[Felkin]

By saying that bots aren't an unfair advantage you are saying that leaving 12 clients open with characters on each that are doing a repetitive task overnight while the person sleeps is not an advantage when compared to someone who has to do the task by hand and on one character at a time.

Custom clients will always be a thing, bots will always be made, and the really "good" bots and client-side exploits will always be hidden away.

When Hafen starts out, there will be one "good" Ender-like custom client that everyone is using because for whatever reason Loftar is incapable of making a user-friendly default client regardless of the time given to him to make one.
Shortly after that client is released and people get an idea for what they would want in their own private custom client, one or two new clients will be made by each faction and they will abuse every meta possible. These clients will not be made public.
That's the part where you start to get shit-on by big factions with good clients.

Nwver said bots dont give an advantage, fully agree on that point, rather we should look for ways to make boting less impactful on player progression.
Once we have a good public client made by the community, as you just said, the only differences faction-specific clients will have are bot-centric. That's already the same as just making bot scripts, just more neatly presented.

[NaoWhut]

I'm fairly certain double tap combat has never been included in public clients, actually.

What's double tap combat?...