Game Development: Sniffing Glue

Announcements about major changes in Haven & Hearth.

Re: Game Development: Sniffing Glue

Postby Avu » Sun Mar 14, 2010 3:29 am

1. Remove teleportation completely. Hirdporting, travel to hearth, travel to village, crossroads. ALL OF IT.

GTFO

2. Add horses, wagons and river barges so that people can carry reasonable amounts of goods at a time (one of the problems with hunger right now is that even a whole cupboard of food isn't enough to last a single person very long, so you need to haul metric fuck tonnes of shit everywhere).

And your horses will walk on water right? They will need roads and bridges a lot of work to fix stuff that actually works. How about we focus on actual problems for a while mkay?

3. Fix key rings.

Meh doubt we'll see this any time soon.

4. Allow us to build carts in caves, you god-damned anti-cave mining fags. :)

completely unrelated
Helms Deeps will now need Gates to get in and out. 20 layers of walls will need 20 gates (and 20 keys stored safely on a keyring or in an abstracted list as per whomever's suggestion). Thus being both aesthetically pleasing and functional. Villagers will be able to get in and out of gates without having to use teleporting because someone else dropped the key or has the key and logged off or you lost your own key or whatever.


Yeah let's spend hours looking and the same bland terrain with no form of character developement in between just so we can force people to build gates. Hooray to technology.

Trade will become large quantities of goods back and forth along rivers between major towns. Some people could setup and become traders who only travel back and forth selling goods. Horses will allow lone riders to travel large distances to get goods they need and travel back quickly.


You've always been an idiot. If something takes longer to acquire than it is to make it yourself you will make it yourself. This has been exposed before. Trades never have been in huge quantities simply because storage space is limited as well as the availability of items. If you want to go to trade for cavebulbs once a real months time just to make it worth it once again gtfo.

Travel should take time. The only people that upsets are people who zap back and forth everywhere hauling tonnes of shit. Again, that's because you NEED to haul tonnes of shit to actually do anything and hauling tonnes of shit can't be done in a single trip right now. Allow us to haul tonnes of shit in a single trip (wagons and barges) and weyhey, an hour spent travelling as you haul 2,000 pieces of clay back to village in the one trip is suddenly worthwhile.


The only people that find this as a good thing are idiots who can't make wine or beer. Travel should take time really? I mean my dream day of playing is coming and looking at non stop repeating forest for hours yeah. When you will get past the building stuff and quitting part of the game and actually play for real come make suggestions.


People who wall in should be protected. That's the whole point of walling in.


They shouldn't be immune though.

Finding a murder / theft / whatever scent, summoning with it and killing that person should not leave your own summonable scent. You're "delivering justice" so you should be reasonably safe from retaliation... Assuming the whole point of the scent system is to discourage "griefers" et al.


Don't make assumptions.

Battering rams shouldn't be damaged while moving too much, they should be damaged mostly from attacks against the wall they're trying to destroy. That way, the attack itself will take time. Players will build a ram nearby, giving the village time to locate it if they maintain a watch (A Watchtower or similar object with a bell that goes off every time someone not of that village is within X distance would be cool).

The warning system is a good idea the damaged on the wall part see potjehs post for why it fails.

Moving the ram shouldn't be every three steps it breaks but every couple of hundred tiles. So it still has to be built fairly close to the town that's being attacked but not stupidly close.

See above. The way it is now is better.

When the ram attacks, damage is done to the ram. After a certain point, it needs repairing. People behind the wall can also attack the ram with their archery and damage it, again leading to repairs. Those repairs should only take half an hour to an hour (real time) to dry. During this time, obviously defenders can repair their wall or try and attack / defend with archery... or destroy the ram and thus fend off the attack.

Again failing to realize people will attack a village when the players sleep and your fictive archers can't affect it. An hour is nothing if the ram was far enough not to be detected before. Wv was destroyed in an hour completely.

If people without anything in inventory could climb walls, attackers would I think have the advantage again as they'd scare off the villagers easily enough (attackers have a tendency to have decent combat skills while defenders have a tendency to rather suck at combat).

Or they can just break your wall and kill you and you still couldn't ever kill them back because you'd never be able to break their walls. If you suck you suck. No armor makes them vulnerable while summoning. Besides if you left scents somewhere you should be afraid anyway.

The issues are:
1. A good village should maintain a watch so they can spot attackers preparing. This will give the village a few days to prepare their own counter-attack / get help.

You think anyone can defend a siege for days?

2. The attack itself needs to take time (1 real time hour I think is quite reasonable to break through an undefended wall). As it's too easy to wait until everyone is offline and attack.

You says it needs to take time and then go retarded like and say one hour because it's easy to wait for defenders to get offline. So ehm wut?

3. If defenders are online at the time, the battle should be epic.

Meh.
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Re: Game Development: Sniffing Glue

Postby Potjeh » Sun Mar 14, 2010 3:49 am

The attacking village is supposed to guard the ram while it dries, and the defending one to sally out and destroy it before it does. We finally get an incentive for real PvP battles, and you want to remove it?
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Re: Game Development: Sniffing Glue

Postby Lothaudus » Sun Mar 14, 2010 3:56 am

Avu wrote:And your horses will walk on water right? They will need roads and bridges a lot of work to fix stuff that actually works.

River barges would be the main-stay, much the same way as boats now are used for travel. Horses are for travelling quickly over large land expanses (which I assume in any future map reset will become larger).

Avu wrote:
Helms Deeps will now need Gates to get in and out. 20 layers of walls will need 20 gates (and 20 keys stored safely on a keyring or in an abstracted list as per whomever's suggestion). Thus being both aesthetically pleasing and functional. Villagers will be able to get in and out of gates without having to use teleporting because someone else dropped the key or has the key and logged off or you lost your own key or whatever.

Yeah let's spend hours looking and the same bland terrain with no form of character developement in between just so we can force people to build gates. Hooray to technology.

I like exploring. If you'd rather be baking and grinding LP all day, you can do that while someone else does the travelling. There's always hunting and foraging while you're out too.

Avu wrote:
Trade will become large quantities of goods back and forth along rivers between major towns. Some people could setup and become traders who only travel back and forth selling goods. Horses will allow lone riders to travel large distances to get goods they need and travel back quickly.

You've always been an idiot. If something takes longer to acquire than it is to make it yourself you will make it yourself. This has been exposed before. Trades never have been in huge quantities simply because storage space is limited as well as the availability of items. If you want to go to trade for cavebulbs once a real months time just to make it worth it once again gtfo.

I've been assuming the long-term plan of regional based goods is still intended. This makes it more likely to occur. I mean gosh, imagine if there was no clay in your entire super-grid at all and you had to import it from 3 supergrids away via connected rivers? Or how about that high Q soil only appearing on the other side of the world? I know you. You'd travel to the ends of the earth for clay that was even only +1 in Q above what you were using.

Avu wrote:
Travel should take time. The only people that upsets are people who zap back and forth everywhere hauling tonnes of shit. Again, that's because you NEED to haul tonnes of shit to actually do anything and hauling tonnes of shit can't be done in a single trip right now. Allow us to haul tonnes of shit in a single trip (wagons and barges) and weyhey, an hour spent travelling as you haul 2,000 pieces of clay back to village in the one trip is suddenly worthwhile.

The only people that find this as a good thing are idiots who can't make wine or beer.

I don't see why someone should be able to instantly zap from one side of the world to the other. What's the point of all that "hiding your town" bullshit if distance is irrelevant? Why bother putting in more supergrids if people only want to move between them quicker? Just how quickly should that Russian army be able to arrive on your doorstep via a temporary (currently non-removable) village with crossroads plonked right outside?

Avu wrote:Travel should take time really? I mean my dream day of playing is coming and looking at non stop repeating forest for hours yeah. When you will get past the building stuff and quitting part of the game and actually play for real come make suggestions.

You find travel boring. Why am I not surprised?

Avu wrote:
Finding a murder / theft / whatever scent, summoning with it and killing that person should not leave your own summonable scent. You're "delivering justice" so you should be reasonably safe from retaliation... Assuming the whole point of the scent system is to discourage "griefers" et al.

Don't make assumptions.

I didn't. "find a solution to the problems with thieving being nigh on impossible to combat". Thieving is still difficult to combat if retaliation results in your own murder.

Avu wrote:Again failing to realize people will attack a village when the players sleep and your fictive archers can't affect it. An hour is nothing if the ram was far enough not to be detected before. Wv was destroyed in an hour completely.

Xanadu, Wayneville, CoP, Codexia and Macomb were all attacked when people were online. There's still posts from chak saying "everyone log-off now" because he knew the attack against CoP was coming.

You really want the attack itself to take fifteen hours? Keep in mind the attackers have to log-off at some point too (not everyone has no job and can sit and play all day), at which point their ram is easily destroyed.

Avu wrote:
If people without anything in inventory could climb walls, attackers would I think have the advantage again as they'd scare off the villagers easily enough (attackers have a tendency to have decent combat skills while defenders have a tendency to rather suck at combat).

Or they can just break your wall and kill you and you still couldn't ever kill them back because you'd never be able to break their walls.

The point is that for the attackers to break your walls is harder. The "they can just break your walls" part is even easier when they've got trained unarmed combat guys with bear capes climbing over and running after you. If you are online during the attack, I don't see why it needs to be even easier for the attackers again.

Avu wrote:
1. A good village should maintain a watch so they can spot attackers preparing. This will give the village a few days to prepare their own counter-attack / get help.

You think anyone can defend a siege for days?

They can destroy the ram easily enough while it's drying and while no attackers are there to defend it. I'm going to assume rams will be built on temprary personal claims though, which means the defenders will need to sacrifice someone willing to leave scents and with the skills necessary to vandalise claimed property. At least with the few days to dry, they can send a message out and call for help.

Avu wrote:
2. The attack itself needs to take time (1 real time hour I think is quite reasonable to break through an undefended wall). As it's too easy to wait until everyone is offline and attack.

You says it needs to take time and then go retarded like and say one hour because it's easy to wait for defenders to get offline. So ehm wut?

The initial ram drying time gives the village time to find the ram and prepare. That includes moving their valuable shit out and leaving nothing for the attackers and advising others not to login for a few days, making it all a waste of time. The current few days drying time will be ample for this. It's a big improvement over the "OH FUCK WE'RE BEING ATTACKED RIGHT NOW".

The attack itself requires attackers to be online. You whinge a lot about boring travel time through boring forests, well how long do you want to sit and watch a battering ram go "thunk" and then need repairs and wait while it dries? Does 3 days of that sound like fun for you? I mean time as in "What's that sound? I'll go check it out... OH SHIT SOMEONE'S HAMMERING THE WALL" and then time to organise, maybe equip some gear and try and repair the wall and fight back, or simply grab some stuff and log-out. Not time as in "30 seconds while KlauE tears through the wall with his over 9,000 strength" and runs after you. An hour or two is plenty.

If you didn't notice the ram being built, you don't deserve another 3 days grace while you wait for the wall to actually come down.
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Re: Game Development: Sniffing Glue

Postby Potjeh » Sun Mar 14, 2010 4:03 am

The whole point is that you *don't* get the initial warning time if the ram can built arbitrarily far away.
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Re: Game Development: Sniffing Glue

Postby Avu » Sun Mar 14, 2010 4:06 am

Don't even bother potjeh not worth it.
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Re: Game Development: Sniffing Glue

Postby Lothaudus » Sun Mar 14, 2010 4:08 am

Potjeh wrote:The whole point is that you *don't* get the initial warning time if the ram can built arbitrarily far away.

Did I or did I not say something about Watchtowers?

... and how easy it is to extend claims over large areas.

... and the XMPP auto-notification when someone trespasses.
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Re: Game Development: Sniffing Glue

Postby RaptorJedi » Sun Mar 14, 2010 4:14 am

I like the current amount of time it takes to build a ram. Though cutting it down to 12 hours instead of 24 isn't that bad.


Potjeh wrote:The attacking village is supposed to guard the ram while it dries, and the defending one to sally out and destroy it before it does. We finally get an incentive for real PvP battles, and you want to remove it?


This. The defending village should have options to stop the siege weapon from being built, or make it take longer to finish, like flaming arrows that burn the glue off or whatever. While the attackers should be able to do things like throw diseased animal corpses over the walls that act like reverse bee hives, increasing the time it takes crops to grow, and giving people in the area a debuff of some kind. If left unchecked, they could reduced the amount of time it takes to siege because the defenders don't have the food.
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Postby Jackard » Sun Mar 14, 2010 4:18 am

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Re: Game Development: Sniffing Glue

Postby warrri » Sun Mar 14, 2010 4:23 am

Lothaudus wrote:
Potjeh wrote:The whole point is that you *don't* get the initial warning time if the ram can built arbitrarily far away.

Did I or did I not say something about Watchtowers?

... and how easy it is to extend claims over large areas.

... and the XMPP auto-notification when someone trespasses.

Yea, you definately should need large claims, which prohibit wildlife spawning around your city for 1k tiles range, because tahts how far away i would build my ram, then drive to you. Gtfo.
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Re:

Postby loftar » Sun Mar 14, 2010 4:23 am

Jackard wrote:
Lothaudus wrote:Watchtowers

We've begun thinking about them, actually (in relation to new village features), and I think we might come up with quite a convincing solution, actually.
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