Game Development: Bling & Beer Brawl

[Gaiadin]

Choo Choo! This thread is heading towards total derailment! It is in moments like these that I am reminded of a certain Smash Mouth song...

[Ruggan]

How about we just get back to the topic. I agree with Voideka, I also perceive the general trend of these discussions to be praise of any new game mechanics (which I'd wager is due to players being excited by the fact that we're actually getting developments) combined with the shunning of negative opinions. This isn't to say that discussions are always like this, or that there aren't valuable opinions in these threads, but I get the feeling that people are so hungry for updates that they are ecstatic with any change, whether progressive or regressive.

Personally, I feel that many recent changes (including some in this update) have had a negative impact on the game by increasing the game's learning curve and giving even the most simple activities high initial costs. Games thrive on being newbie friendly, as there's always going to be an influx of curious new players and an efflux of bored old ones. Here is a list of some examples that have had this effect:

• Viewing QL requires PER. Newbies have 10 PER, no initial access to PER food, and need quite a bit of PER to even see what is considered "medium" (50+) quality.
• QL System. There is literally no use for low quality goods. Newbies have nothing worthwhile to trade and will take a bit of investment to have any processed goods that people want. (Food is an exception, barely.) Note that I'm not suggesting that the QL system is scrapped by any means, just that low quality goods are given more utility such that newbies aren't a complete waste of resources.
• Travel Weariness. Newbies can't get Beer/Wine easily, beds suck. Traveling sucks for anyone that doesn't want to live in the wasteland. I realize it isn't finished, but when will it be?
• Rivers and Swimming. Do I even need to explain this one? Yes, let's confine all new characters to a desolate wasteland until they gain enough CON to brave a river. Also not finished, but when will it be?
• Combat. It takes a bit of initial investment to be able to fight any retaliatory animals, and the balance between unarmed and melee is a bit ridiculous (i.e. they are not balanced).
• Black Arts. Now that newbies can't buy PvP skills without a ton of LP, they can't effectively retaliate against thieves and have to rely on established players. There is no good reason for this.
• Thorns & Run Speed. I see no good reason to make the most common terrain (forest) such a pain in the ass to run around in. C'est la vie.

Some might argue that new players could avoid much of the difficulty of starting up by joining with other established players / a town. This may be true, but it should by no means be a requirement, and does not alleviate many of the previous concerns. While much of this doesn't affect me directly, as I'm already established, having to start from scratch would bring me to the verge of quitting simply due to the difficulty of it (and I doubt I'm the only one). As much as I like having new things to do, I hope the updates start catering towards new players or fixing existing problems rather than creating new ones.

With all the negativity, I'd like to end this on a positive note. I do appreciate the work the developers have put into this game, and while I don't necessarily agree with their development direction, there have been changes I view as progressive. But who cares what I think. It is their game, after all.

[Chakravanti]

How about we just get back to the topic. I agree with Voideka, I also perceive the general trend of these discussions to be praise of any new game mechanics (which I'd wager is due to players being excited by the fact that we're actually getting developments) combined with the shunning of negative opinions.

Yes, I agree it's easier to just assume we're all circle jerking instead of actually getting to know people around here.

Viewing QL requires PER. Newbies have 10 PER, no initial access to PER food, and need quite a bit of PER to even see what is considered "medium" (50+) quality.

plant and eat a shitton of carrots. how is that not newbie food??? it's what i did as a newbie. In fact...it's what more advanced players profess to do...including myuself
Screw carrot cakes. That's for selling to high end players that need to cram back 300FEPs/point. At that point....even I would just grow a more massive carrot field.

QL System. There is literally no use for low quality goods. Newbies have nothing worthwhile to trade and will take a bit of investment to have any processed goods that people want. (Food is an exception, barely.) Note that I'm not suggesting that the QL system is scrapped by any means, just that low quality goods are given more utility such that newbies aren't a complete waste of resources.

You have obviously not been hanging around trade chat very much? LInen - Any Q, Mushrooms/piros Q10+, Bread LESS THAN Q10. (i.e. filling, no feps, A miner's favorite staple beyond raw meat)

Travel Weariness. Newbies can't get Beer/Wine easily, beds suck. Traveling sucks for anyone that doesn't want to live in the wasteland. I realize it isn't finished, but when will it be?

For now, newbies are best off NOT traveling. Hearhting at moorlands when finding cows or out at some nearby L1/2 hunting grounds is cool but tbh you just don't need to go anywhere unless you have people you want to join. In which case they may escort you and you'll have acees to resources to help you develop faster.

Rivers and Swimming. Do I even need to explain this one? Yes, let's confine all new characters to a desolate wasteland until they gain enough CON to brave a river. Also not finished, but when will it be?

Why do you want to go traveling through Mordor when you can't survive it anyway? TBH Rivers are the only MEANS of surviving the travel of a great distance. As it stands, If I were determined, I could walk a freshly created charecter to any of the surrounding 8 supers.

Combat. It takes a bit of initial investment to be able to fight any retaliatory animals, and the balance between unarmed and melee is a bit ridiculous (i.e. they are not balanced).

Flaws in the combat system vs. AI have been studied extensively. The revamp of the combat system is most likely pending PvP analysis.

Black Arts. Now that newbies can't buy PvP skills without a ton of LP, they can't effectively retaliate against thieves and have to rely on established players. There is no good reason for this.

It's been said by loftar that high LP cost of black arts is but a place holder for a different system of preventing altthieves. Enablling black skills to be effective for newbies wouldn't mean you'll suffer less grief. It would mean you would suffer more.

Thorns & Run Speed. I see no good reason to make the most common terrain (forest) such a pain in the ass to run around in. C'est la vie.

This always seemed to me like one of those wtf updates. It is more of a stupid PIA than something that adds any sense of realism or intrinsic value to the gameplay. I usually ignore it til i get around to making new boots.

Absolute worst case scenario: I run out of TW at RoB and forgot to bring wine, so I Lo/Li to my hearth, which is set up at my hunting grounds at the time and means I have quite a hike ahead of me. I get mauled by a bear for breaks my shoes. I get KOed every 50 tiles or so and getting back to my villages takes me two hours.

Moral of the story is that if you don't drink enough alcohol you may find yourself stuck the fuck out in BFE getting eaten by bears and otherwise poked and proded by general forestry.

[Blaze]

I don't know why people can't just walk in forests...
Also, thorns are never a problem when you can just make clogs...

Which shouldn't be a problem since animals don't aggro until lvl 3, and all the tree-less areas are level 1 since people live there.

[Chakravanti]

I don't know why people can't just walk in forests...
Also, thorns are never a problem when you can just make clogs...

Which shouldn't be a problem since animals don't aggro until lvl 3, and all the tree-less areas are level 1 since people live there.

It's not a problem at all. I get thorns constantly every time i burn through a set of leather. I don't even care cuz I'm just too lazy to make shit yet more often than not. but yeah, for some reason you'de have to have forgotten your axe in that absolute worst case scenario.

[theTrav]

I don't understand what you're trying to say here. I was talking about you, in addition to other people.

Well that's my point. You were NOT talking to me. You don't know me, you don't want to make any effort to know me, or where my opinions are coming from. You have a whole lot of vague angst that you're projecting against my posts without any factual backing.

I wasn't planning on paging through post histories.

If you'd gone back maybe one page, maybe less, you'd see me agreeing with Del's overall opinion that the perception to viewable quality change does not seem to add much.

You should try to compartmentalize things more. I'm not objecting to you specifically or your opinions on game design specifically. I am objecting to your wishy washy attitude of "some guys disagree with everything" and your reflexive argument without thought. I think Chak really said it the best with:

Yes, I agree it's easier to just assume we're all circle jerking instead of actually getting to know people around here.

Voideka you are making incorrect assumptions and showing symptoms of mental laziness, which I find offensive.

[theTrav]

Personally, I feel that many recent changes (including some in this update) have had a negative impact on the game by increasing the game's learning curve and giving even the most simple activities high initial costs.

I'm not sure I agree that the learning curve is steeper... It was already pretty bleak for new characters... It certainly hasn't been made any easier though and I'll certainly agree that making it easier for them would be a positive change.

Viewing QL requires PER. Newbies have 10 PER, no initial access to PER food, and need quite a bit of PER to even see what is considered "medium" (50+) quality.

Newbies have access to carrots, and 50+ quality is the upper side of medium closer to high. I'd call 30-40 medium

QL System. There is literally no use for low quality goods.

Cellars, Banners, Merchant robes, water skins, backpacks, boots, walls, mining. Do I need to go on?

Newbies have nothing worthwhile to trade and will take a bit of investment to have any processed goods that people want.

I've put newbies to work in TCoB moments after they started making tree pots and planting trees and harvesting hemp and turning it to cloth for the banners. I paid them in hides, backpacks and copper coins.

Travel Weariness. Newbies can't get Beer/Wine easily, beds suck. Traveling sucks for anyone that doesn't want to live in the wasteland. I realize it isn't finished, but when will it be?

I'm hard line anti teleport so we're probably never going to come to agreement on this topic.

Rivers and Swimming. Do I even need to explain this one? Yes, let's confine all new characters to a desolate wasteland until they gain enough CON to brave a river. Also not finished, but when will it be?

they are not confined, the starting location is not completely surrounded by rivers. Civilization currently extends quite a ways out into forested areas.

Combat

I agree with everything you say on combat. It's a broken system that needs a lot of work

Black Arts. Now that newbies can't buy PvP skills without a ton of LP, they can't effectively retaliate against thieves and have to rely on established players. There is no good reason for this.

Newbies are never going to be very effective at retaliating against established players. That's desirable to prevent alt griefing. I take your point that it may currently be overbalanced against new players but I'm not convinced that adjusting that balance will make the game more fun for anyone.

Thorns & Run Speed.

Yeah, agreed, it seemed to me like they just did it as the easiest possible way to try out status effects.

joining with other established players / a town. This may be true, but it should by no means be a requirement

I don't think it's a requirement now, but it makes it several magnitudes easier to get started... Do you want it to be equal difficulty solo vs town play? Or are you just arguing that the current balance is to heavily in favour of towns?

[Ruggan]

Yes, I agree it's easier to just assume we're all circle jerking instead of actually getting to know people around here.

Wow. Here I am trying to be civil, and you start your post with a slap in my face.

plant and eat a shitton of carrots. how is that not newbie food??? it's what i did as a newbie. In fact...it's what more advanced players profess to do...including myuself
Screw carrot cakes. That's for selling to high end players that need to cram back 300FEPs/point. At that point....even I would just grow a more massive carrot field.

The problem with this is that it's GRINDY. Yes, it may be accessible to newer players, but to what ends? Are you arguing that they should be required to spend hours of time to accurately judge the quality of medium quality materials? I personally don't see any reason the game needs the "2*PER = QL viewable" change. What does it add to the game? It might be bearable if it were more logarithmic, but if you insist on it being based off a linear equation for god knows why, at least make it more reasonable than 2*PER. I guess this is a matter of opinion though, I'm just not a fan of changes that add confusion and burden a in bottom-heavy manner.

You have obviously not been hanging around trade chat very much? LInen - Any Q, Mushrooms/piros Q10+, Bread LESS THAN Q10. (i.e. filling, no feps, A miner's favorite staple beyond raw meat)

You'll notice I said food was an exception. Generally, there are two situations that arise with regards to the quality system: [1] the QL of an item has an effect on the utility (in which case newbies have no trade influence with the exception of foods), or [2] the QL of an item has no effect on the utility (e.g. backpacks) in which case the market is either flooded with or has a comparatively low value for these items, but whose value is irrelevant since QL plays no role in their valuation. The point is, the QL system has made it MORE DIFFICULT for newbies to trade rather than easier. This is not to say that trade as a new player has become more difficult overall, but rather that the QL system is one factor that contributes to the difficulty of trade as a new player.

For now, newbies are best off NOT traveling. Hearhting at moorlands when finding cows or out at some nearby L1/2 hunting grounds is cool but tbh you just don't need to go anywhere unless you have people you want to join. In which case they may escort you and you'll have acees to resources to help you develop faster.

Why should newbies be discouraged from traveling? I see no good reason for this. Let me be clear that I do not think players should be able to travel across the map in seconds (a departure from the teleportation system was needed), but rather that there should be alternative methods of transportation that facilitate traveling along established routes. Crossroads are a cop out in this regard, as newbies will still need to use Travel Weariness, which is something that is in vastly short supply unless you have access to alcohol (newbies don't).

Why do you want to go traveling through Mordor when you can't survive it anyway? TBH Rivers are the only MEANS of surviving the travel of a great distance. As it stands, If I were determined, I could walk a freshly created charecter to any of the surrounding 8 supers.

The question shouldn't be "why do you want to?" but rather "why shouldn't you be able to?". Please tell me why new players shouldn't be able to go out there if they so desire. The fact that rivers are such major obstacles to new and even medium-level characters (and excludes them from a number of areas on each supergrid) is a bit ridiculous.

Flaws in the combat system vs. AI have been studied extensively. The revamp of the combat system is most likely pending PvP analysis.

The sooner, the better. I wish fixing problems was a priority, but it doesn't seem to be.

It's been said by loftar that high LP cost of black arts is but a place holder for a different system of preventing altthieves. Enablling black skills to be effective for newbies wouldn't mean you'll suffer less grief. It would mean you would suffer more.

I'll agree with you that it's broken. It is. But the changes have led to the inability of new characters to effectively retaliate against older characters by individually through any means.

QL System. There is literally no use for low quality goods.

Cellars, Banners, Merchant robes, water skins, backpacks, boots, walls, mining. Do I need to go on?

Like I said above, either the goods are affected by the QL system (in which case newbies are completely worthless at making them) or the goods are not affected by the QL system (in which case these goods are irrelevant as they do nothing to demonstrate the effect of the QL system on new players), with a few exceptions.

Newbies have nothing worthwhile to trade and will take a bit of investment to have any processed goods that people want.

I've put newbies to work in TCoB moments after they started making tree pots and planting trees and harvesting hemp and turning it to cloth for the banners. I paid them in hides, backpacks and copper coins.

This seems like a valid point, but I'd like to differentiate here between game mechanics and support networks. This falls into the latter category. I will agree that the game has moved towards encouraging community and communal support, which is certainly beneficial to new characters.

Travel Weariness. Newbies can't get Beer/Wine easily, beds suck. Traveling sucks for anyone that doesn't want to live in the wasteland. I realize it isn't finished, but when will it be?

I'm hard line anti teleport so we're probably never going to come to agreement on this topic.

Actually, I completely agree with you. I just think that the method that's in place now discriminates against newer characters. How about boats, cattle drawn carts, mounts, and the like instead? At least that'd be a step in the right direction.

Rivers and Swimming. Do I even need to explain this one? Yes, let's confine all new characters to a desolate wasteland until they gain enough CON to brave a river. Also not finished, but when will it be?

they are not confined, the starting location is not completely surrounded by rivers. Civilization currently extends quite a ways out into forested areas.

I just noticed the opening to the far east of the starting point. Regardless, a majority of players are still blocked off from numerous areas due to rivers.

joining with other established players / a town. This may be true, but it should by no means be a requirement

I don't think it's a requirement now, but it makes it several magnitudes easier to get started... Do you want it to be equal difficulty solo vs town play? Or are you just arguing that the current balance is to heavily in favour of towns?

I certainly don't think solo play should be as effective as town play. As for the desired balance, I honestly don't know what I think would be best. I just feel that players should be able to live in better conditions than abject poverty without resorting to joining a town at any point in their lifetime. But I could see this point argued either way.

[theTrav]

QL System. There is literally no use for low quality goods.

Cellars, Banners, Merchant robes, water skins, backpacks, boots, walls, mining. Do I need to go on?

Like I said above, either the goods are affected by the QL system (in which case newbies are completely worthless at making them) or the goods are not affected by the QL system (in which case these goods are irrelevant as they do nothing to demonstrate the effect of the QL system on new players), with a few exceptions.

The fact that the quality system does not apply to these cases (specifically banners and mining foods) means that new players are not forced out of the trading game due to their low quality wares.

The quality system opens up more trading options for higher level players (who would not have been buying from newbies without a quality system anyway) and does not exclude newbies from having anything of worth.

As a brand new player I can create and trade the following items without caring about quality:
chantrelles
logs and boards (plant my own trees)
bricks
linen
silk
carrot cake
butter
tea (if I'm lucky enough to get myself some starter seeds, although I could probably trade some cloth for some)

I agree that the quality system does not add anything for the newer players, and that it does add something for the higher level players that the new players don't get (until they're high level) but I disagree that it actively reduces the value of new player crafted goods.

[lithos]

I think the Quality update is really good and it's reaming me(newbie perception 15 right now). I personally think that it relieves a lot of the "grind" because it limits the quality I need to worry about, The only thing I need to worry about is: Wow this is good QL stuff for me, and I can see this QL now I might think about upgrading.

However there is one change that should happen: Between 100% and 150% Quality(In reference to what you should see) the color of the Quality should be different than what you see for Greater than 150%. Maybe the normal white than green for the second.