Keeping you Posted, #0

[Potjeh]

I don't think I've ever actually made a thread on this. Anyway, yeah, it's exactly like the current crossroads system, except to port from one to another they have to be connected with milestones. Should work just fine for both inter and intra village travel. Not any worse than what we have now, except for reaching areas that are completely walled with no gates, which shouldn't exist anyway because they're too exploity.

[LadyV]

Using a fast travel system bound to milestones would only serve to make the game more tedious, biased towards raiders and factions, and hurt new players. Not everyone can keep an eye on milestones to ensure their route is functioning. It increases conflict by people camping your roads or destroying them. And new players will not ever be safe because creating a basic system to get anywhere will be more difficult.

I'd sooner have abstract keys that are bound to people and hearthfire only travel with distance modifiers like crossroads have. Then add a a dedicated mechanic for trade that allows long distance trade without actual travel. This kind of abstraction makes it possible to trade without the abuse of moving anywhere int eh world.

[fox]

Anyway goodsteps in it!
Jorb, Why it's looking so like Salem concept arts? Or maybe mostly first H&H concepts?!
And that meaning you are make some steps in to your real first impression and imagination art of your game?

[Bob_the_Cat]

This has probobly been said before, but along the topic of travelling, there needs to be no boats. Or at least have boats suck and not be the main way to get around (where there is a lot more connected land, less islands, more lakes less rivers).

Theres nothing more lame then when I'm in a boat chasing a guy in a boat...

[Tonkyhonk]

Even with the current system as it is, botters still bot and those against it don't.

those against it dont bot and leave. you quit the game soon enough along with other non-botters. botters stay and the percentage raise. think twice why you never last long before trying to argue this.

I don't think I've ever actually made a thread on this.

maybe it wasnt a thread but a post...? i do remember reading it explaining obstacles interfering porting and such, but searching it now by key words just bring up your recent posts skipping details. oh well, if you find it as simple as milestones connections, then maybe i dont have to go back to it.

It increases conflict by people camping your roads or destroying them. And new players will not ever be safe because creating a basic system to get anywhere will be more difficult.

im afraid thats the point, actually.
it doesnt hurt new players when they dont know how the current crossroad system is (rather hurt those who are too used to the current one), besides, new players dont get to build cr when theyre still new. and note that this is about cr, not vport.

[LadyV]

It increases conflict by people camping your roads or destroying them. And new players will not ever be safe because creating a basic system to get anywhere will be more difficult.

im afraid thats the point, actually.
it doesnt hurt new players when they dont know how the current crossroad system is (rather hurt those who are too used to the current one), besides, new players dont get to build cr when theyre still new. and note that this is about cr, not vport.

Tonky if they have to sit there and build milestones all the way to their destination that means they have less time to develop, a road system the have to check and maintain, and puts them in harms way of those who like to prey upon the weak. Fast transit should not be a lesson in engineering.

Will it hurt those who rely on cr's now? Yes it will to some degree. But that's not a bad thing. As i mentioned already if you have hearthfire only fast travel that works well for new players, hermits, and villages. You have a quick method home after scouting, foraging, or whatever. Apply distance limits like the current cr system and you have it within reason.

Making keys abstract and bound to the owner saves so many people the worry of leaving their gates carrying them. It also helps all the new people who lose their keys or lock themselves out.

Finally adding a trade mechanic to Haven instead of having to teleport all over the map is more functional and safer. It also opens up trade to new players who may not have access normally. Trade has always been a last minute addition to Haven when it comes to game mechanics and it should be addressed.

All of the points I mentioned that you did not quote are fair and balanced. It gives function yet maintains fun, without massive effort.

[Tonkyhonk]

Tonky if they have to sit there and build milestones all the way to their destination that means they have less time to develop, a road system the have to check and maintain, and puts them in harms way of those who like to prey upon the weak. Fast transit should not be a lesson in engineering.

by the time they are at the phase of building cr, they are not *new* players any more, only relatively newer to the core concept (and ui) of this game than you and i and those who like to prey upon the weak. everyone is going to be new to the new mechanics without exceptions.

All of the points I mentioned that you did not quote are fair and balanced. It gives function yet maintains fun, without massive effort.

well, sorry, but i didnt find others particularly worth quoting to reply back.

as for keys, im not going to repeat it again, we have to wait and see how itll be because itll be changed. lets not start an empty discussion without seeing whatever comes to our table.

trading was never intended to be done by village porting and i thought we all knew that it was rather an exploit accepted positively by the most. the game content comes first and trading is secondary. if we cannot continue the current-ish trading activities, we can still challenge local trading with whatever system given to us, and if we see problems with it, then we can start discussion. the only thing i want devs to remember re trading is that many of us didnt like Boston and im sure theyve heard enough.

[Lunarius_Haberdash]

Using a fast travel system bound to milestones would only serve to make the game more tedious, biased towards raiders and factions, and hurt new players. Not everyone can keep an eye on milestones to ensure their route is functioning. It increases conflict by people camping your roads or destroying them. And new players will not ever be safe because creating a basic system to get anywhere will be more difficult.

I'd sooner have abstract keys that are bound to people and hearthfire only travel with distance modifiers like crossroads have. Then add a a dedicated mechanic for trade that allows long distance trade without actual travel. This kind of abstraction makes it possible to trade without the abuse of moving anywhere int eh world.

Developed roads are the signs of a developed civilization, outside of the Roman Road TRUE roads as we think of them today (or as the romans thought of them) did not exist in most of the world. You were lucky to get a deep mud trail in spring and fall, and a wheel breaking rut filled hardpack during the Summer and Winter. True roads (which is what we're discussing) SHOULD have to be maintained and built, they should not be the province of the solo player or hermits.

As far as 'more biased towards'. Yes, there's strength and ability in numbers. There is a mark of cultural advancement called "diversified tasks" or "Specialists". Hermits are not this, they tend to be well balanced because they have to be. Cities build better examples of everything because no one person has to do it all, instead they do *a* thing, and they do it very well. Being a warrior happens to be among them.

I am not interested in seeing Haven make concessions to yield to those not part of a village or community of some kind. You are but one person, or a small group, you can only do so much.

Fast travel shouldn't exist at all, I feel it is antithetical to the concept of 'wilderness survival', and 'building civilizations'.

It is appropriate that there are those who wander, and those that stay close to home.
It is appropriate that we should have to carefully consider a trip for trading.
It is appropriate that an hours far travel require hours long return.
It is appropriate that safety does not exist outside your city walls.
It is appropriate that civilizations and large villages can provide safety and services hermits cannot. (Like functioning roads).

All of these things are how cities were built, how civilizations rose, and why the countryside wasn't littered with the homes of hermits, but small hamlets and villages of 10-20 people.

It's dangerous out there, bring a helmet. (And soldier's gauntlets, and plate, and...)

[LadyV]

by the time they are at the phase of building cr, they are not *new* players any more, only relatively newer to the core concept (and ui) of this game than you and i and those who like to prey upon the weak. everyone is going to be new to the new mechanics without exceptions.

Tonky you know very well being new lasts much longer than that. Learning recipes on how to do things is the easy part. Learning how to function int he game and Haven society another. They will be new much longer than you credit.

as for keys, im not going to repeat it again, we have to wait and see how itll be because itll be changed. lets not start an empty discussion without seeing whatever comes to our table.

Then why talk about anything other than the nice picture Jorb provided us? Commenting, speculating, tossing around ideas, and good spirited debate is part of this. If you end the discussion what's left to put in the forums other than the news?

trading was never intended to be done by village porting and i thought we all knew that it was rather an exploit accepted positively by the most. the game content comes first and trading is secondary. if we cannot continue the current-ish trading activities, we can still challenge local trading with whatever system given to us, and if we see problems with it, then we can start discussion. the only thing i want devs to remember re trading is that many of us didnt like Boston and im sure theyve heard enough.

But trading is not secondary. It is a very important and vital part of Haven. It may not have been intended but it is. A dedicated mechanic to handle trading without all over the map teleporting is reasonable.

[LadyV]

Developed roads are the signs of a developed civilization, outside of the Roman Road TRUE roads as we think of them today (or as the romans thought of them) did not exist in most of the world. You were lucky to get a deep mud trail in spring and fall, and a wheel breaking rut filled hardpack during the Summer and Winter. True roads (which is what we're discussing) SHOULD have to be maintained and built, they should not be the province of the solo player or hermits.

As far as 'more biased towards'. Yes, there's strength and ability in numbers. There is a mark of cultural advancement called "diversified tasks" or "Specialists". Hermits are not this, they tend to be well balanced because they have to be. Cities build better examples of everything because no one person has to do it all, instead they do *a* thing, and they do it very well. Being a warrior happens to be among them.

I am not interested in seeing Haven make concessions to yield to those not part of a village or community of some kind. You are but one person, or a small group, you can only do so much.

Fast travel shouldn't exist at all, I feel it is antithetical to the concept of 'wilderness survival', and 'building civilizations'.

It is appropriate that there are those who wander, and those that stay close to home.
It is appropriate that we should have to carefully consider a trip for trading.
It is appropriate that an hours far travel require hours long return.
It is appropriate that safety does not exist outside your city walls.
It is appropriate that civilizations and large villages can provide safety and services hermits cannot. (Like functioning roads).

All of these things are how cities were built, how civilizations rose, and why the countryside wasn't littered with the homes of hermits, but small hamlets and villages of 10-20 people.

It's dangerous out there, bring a helmet. (And soldier's gauntlets, and plate, and...)

Lunaris we have new world plants placing haven in a period shortly after discovery of the new world in timeline. Most of Europe had roads of some sort at that time. I dont disagree villages should have more options to prove this advantage of specialists and working together. I even made suggestions to such in C&I. However hermits or no village groups play this game and they play in numbers I imagine exceed villages. This is a game and everyone is entitle to have fun. So please remember that and keep things balanced not biased. I am not debating the dangers out there. Your view is skewed.