Game Development: Combat System

Announcements about major changes in Haven & Hearth.

Re: Game Development: Combat System

Postby jorb » Sun Feb 14, 2010 11:22 am

Chakravanti wrote:You know I kinda take offense to this. WV rather proved why the test server was a major fail. This is because it was mostly based on data of the real world. Logging in gave intel to enemies about your characater. COmbined with wiping the map itself caused any accounts that did exist on it to be unable to have any equipment worth testing.

If you want 'test' server it should BE that. Premade eq, arbitrary setting of stats. etc. Don't try and blame player apathy when you've set up a game to be so political and intel sensitive that people are too paranoid to use anything that can jeopardize that.


Fair points, but I didn't mean it as an accusation as much as a statement of fact. :)
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Re: Game Development: Combat System

Postby jorb » Sun Feb 14, 2010 1:31 pm

Some summing up, and some thoughts.

1) There's too many attacks/moves. The plan we've had is to introduce a system in which you would have to pick from the available attacks and construct a "combat school" comprising of somewhere between 8-10-12 combat options in total. Per some character stat/stats, you might be able to have more moves. The school would then be all you had available for any specific combat. The school would then, after some time, perhaps, acquire some identity of it's own -- be given a name, be possible to teach as one unit, maybe even receive some qualitative bonuses if used unmodified. Also, as it is, a lot of you must reasonably have gotten every new attack pretty much immediately, where the thought has obviously been that you'd gradually get more attacks, and thus have some time to familiarize yourself with each attack as you get it. Under any new learning system, attacks would most likely be learned one by one.

2) The system is over complex. This might be accurate. The idea we've wanted to realize is one which basically says that actual player skill should be as important as character stats. I think that, in order to realize that idea, the system needs to have a certain amount of complexity. What I am concerned about is that the complexity that is in isn't always very meaningful. Intensity is more or less irrelevant. We've tried to amend this by attacks and moves that play off this dimension, in order to make it meaningful, but we've probably not been entirely successful. In the case of intensity, it might be the case that this could be amended by more attacks playing off of it.

Balance is obviously a critical dimension. What the balance-meter says is relevant. The concern I have with it is that it might be stupid to have inherent feedback loops in the system. As it is, you gain balance by winning, which can obviously quickly lead to you winning even more, and thus gaining more balance. When fighting bears I've found myself using seize the day + bloodlust in a not so super-interesting tug-of-war with the bear over balance.

Offense and defense were put in so as to set up the fundamental logic that you cannot simply use attacks. The idea was that you should have to build up a resource, offense, and then expend it to throw an attack, reducing you opponents defense. It also adds in more fight local variables that the attacks and moves can play off, and modify. One particular interaction I do like is that between "Charge!" and "Flex", where you can build up initiative points using charge in order to "unlock" a better offense-gaining move, flex. It means spending some time building offense at a slow pace, reducing defense, but then being able to use a better move later. Interactions like that add a certain amount of strategy to the system.

3) Fighting animals is boring. Constructing an AI for this system is a fairly daunting task, so we decided to give the animals attacks that simply make them difficult, rather than intelligent. The system was always designed with PvP in mind.

4) The moves aren't fun. I don't know. What I like about the new system is that fighting is a responsive ordeal. It is not simply the case that we both stand looking at one another, throwing punches without much concern for what the opponent is doing. Attacks need to be timed, etc. If your opponent starts gaining combat balance by using moves, you will have to counter that at some point. It might be the case that these interactions suffer from a tug-of-war syndrome. While damage from weapons, and armor soak, might not be optimal as it is, I do think that the new math apart from that works fairly well. As warrri pointed out, you will almost always win in a one-to-one fight if you have a decent lead in stats, but you still have problems if you go up against multiple opponents.

Keep posting your thoughts. I'm humble about it, so feel free to spout as much abuse as you like. ;)
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Re: Game Development: Combat System

Postby Potjeh » Sun Feb 14, 2010 1:44 pm

jorb wrote:2) The system is over complex. This might be accurate. The idea we've wanted to realize is one which basically says that actual player skill should be as important as character stats. I think that, in order to realize that idea, the system needs to have a certain amount of complexity.

Rule complexity bad, emergent complexity good. Chess has a relatively simple set of rules, but it's an incredibly complex game. Of course, I don't expect you to come up with something like chess, but you should strive towards a system that's easy to learn, but hard to master.
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Re: Game Development: Combat System

Postby HulkingUnicorn » Sun Feb 14, 2010 2:10 pm

Would be nice if something like this change was implemented before the reset at least; not leaving scents if you take steps to hurt someone you have a scent of in your inventory, be it from trespassing, vandalism, theft or assault/murder. You might even drop "a sweet scent of justice" that won't point to anywhere.
In a similar vein, attacking people doing bad things on your claim or murdering someone who attacks you shouldn't produce scents either. This would at least prevent you from wasting your main on petty revenge towards someones alt and thus giving him a way to track you after that (same thing regarding being baited into one-hitting a weak alt who attacked you).
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Re: Game Development: Combat System

Postby Avu » Sun Feb 14, 2010 3:27 pm

HulkingUnicorn wrote:Would be nice if something like this change was implemented before the reset at least; not leaving scents if you take steps to hurt someone you have a scent of in your inventory, be it from trespassing, vandalism, theft or assault/murder. You might even drop "a sweet scent of justice" that won't point to anywhere.
In a similar vein, attacking people doing bad things on your claim or murdering someone who attacks you shouldn't produce scents either. This would at least prevent you from wasting your main on petty revenge towards someones alt and thus giving him a way to track you after that (same thing regarding being baited into one-hitting a weak alt who attacked you).


This!
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Re: Game Development: Combat System

Postby warrri » Sun Feb 14, 2010 4:34 pm

jorb wrote:4) The moves aren't fun. I don't know. What I like about the new system is that fighting is a responsive ordeal. It is not simply the case that we both stand looking at one another

Yes, we both stand looking at one another throwing weird attacks that do nothing but give you coins or advantage or offensive. As i said above, if you put a realism factor in here, what exactly are those guys doing? The only exception here is throw sand, but where do these guys get sand on grass? :P
jorb wrote:, throwing punches without much concern for what the opponent is doing. Attacks need to be timed, etc. If your opponent starts gaining combat balance by using moves, you will have to counter that at some point. It might be the case that these interactions suffer from a tug-of-war syndrome. While damage from weapons, and armor soak, might not be optimal as it is, I do think that the new math apart from that works fairly well. As warrri pointed out, you will almost always win in a one-to-one fight if you have a decent lead in stats, but you still have problems if you go up against multiple opponents.


I dont really know how youve tested it yourself, but its not exactly as you describe it. In a 1on1 the stats still matter a lot, considering how rare fights between equal people are the stronger in a duel can pretty much do what he wants.
Im still looking for you or loftar to prove me wrong here and spar me :3
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Re: Game Development: Combat System

Postby Flocke » Sun Feb 14, 2010 4:43 pm

dear jorb,

i'm not sure why i need 2 points first before i can use my sword once. a useless weapon for me now.
i've switched to archery so the whole new combat system is not importend for me, i have MMS of 80 now and hunting with a bow works for me...

for fighting with an axe you need 4 points, you've thought about using this noob-weapon in combat?
i mean you have to "Charge" and "Dash" several times first, i think that's not realistic!

if i have a sword or axe i want to hit my target with my weapon and if necessary i have to use strategic elements in addition to win.

just a spontaneously idea:
it should be possible to decide where i want to hit my target, with different attack moves:
hit the head > decrease helmet armor
hit the body > decrease body armor
hit the legs > decrease pants armor

no armor = SHP/HHP damage

make jump, side step and duck/cringe to defense maneuvers, so you can avoid the attackers move.
but you don't know which attack move your opponent chooses, so there is only a possibility to avoid the attackers move!

that's my point of view.

btw. skinning/butcher knife, hip quiver AND backpack, please!
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Re: Game Development: Combat System

Postby bitza » Sun Feb 14, 2010 5:06 pm

and key ring

edit: i read somewhere once that the main problem with the key ring was an issue with 'selection inside of a container' or something to that effect. if that's the case, why not make the key ring open the way a seedbag does, and we can manually select the key we need and click "use" while standing in front of the gate. i'm guessing everyone in h&h can live with that, right guys?
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Re: Game Development: Combat System

Postby DeadlyPencil » Sun Feb 14, 2010 5:24 pm

Is there anything I can say to convince you to go back to the old system? I am not sure how your testing, but my experience with unarmed has been horrible against animals. If i have problems killing animals at 180 unarmed, and even after i kill one have to wait 2 minutes for my defence to go back up. I honestly do not believe even increasing my unarmed and str by 50% would do anything. I honestly do not think you will be able to "fix" this system you have implemented, its just to far gone.

Now to complain about damage. When i sparing against someone in my village the max damage i EVER did was 71 damage, which was with strangle. I punched 73 naturally before the update (like 150 with knock your teeth out or something). my normal damage now is about 45 after i have drained there defence. I have to hit them around 12 times in order to kill them, which after the first time i punch them is easy because i start getting full combat advantage. however this is against an opponent who is staying to fight because iam sparing... in a real battle a person with unarmed would never be able to kill someone if they didn't want to die, they could just run away as soon as a scored my first real hit. It would then take me 12 more hits to kill them, however to get those 12 hits, i will probably have to do at least 2 flex's per each punch meaning 36 actions total to kill them (while they are running away). compare this to a sword which only has to hit once, they killed me in 2 hits (they did over 400 damage a hit, and there str was about 30 more than mine).

If you are one of those developers who cannot remove an update they know is bad once they already put it in, then please concider changing it so that you are swinging your sword or punching the entire time during combat. And instead of "moves" sharing the same cooldown as your attacks, they would have a seperate bar. If you are losing the battle then you switch which kind of moves your doing. but you would be punching the whole time. you would have to adjust damage back to what it as though, swords doing 400 vs a punch doing only 50 damage from the same person would make this broken.
Last edited by DeadlyPencil on Sun Feb 14, 2010 8:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Game Development: Combat System

Postby neoshadow_xxx » Sun Feb 14, 2010 5:59 pm

javax.media.opengl.GLException: java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Integer
at javax.media.opengl.Threading.invokeOnOpenGLThread(Threading.java:271)
at javax.media.opengl.GLCanvas.maybeDoSingleThreadedWorkaround(GLCanvas.java:410)
at javax.media.opengl.GLCanvas.display(GLCanvas.java:244)
at haven.HavenPanel.uglyjoglhack(HavenPanel.java:352)
at haven.HavenPanel.run(HavenPanel.java:381)
at java.lang.Thread.run(Thread.java:613)
Caused by: java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Integer
at java.awt.Font$Key.<init>(Font.java:629)
at java.awt.Font.getFont(Font.java:558)
at java.awt.font.StyledParagraph.getGraphicOrFont(StyledParagraph.java:461)
at java.awt.font.StyledParagraph.<init>(StyledParagraph.java:87)
at java.awt.font.TextMeasurer.initAll(TextMeasurer.java:208)
at java.awt.font.TextMeasurer.<init>(TextMeasurer.java:149)
at haven.RichText$TextPart.tm(RichText.java:201)
at haven.RichText$TextPart.width(RichText.java:213)
at haven.RichText$Foundry.layout(RichText.java:504)
at haven.RichText$Foundry.render(RichText.java:550)
at haven.MenuGrid.rendertt(MenuGrid.java:149)
at haven.MenuGrid.draw(MenuGrid.java:173)
at haven.Widget.draw(Widget.java:282)
at haven.SlenHud.draw(SlenHud.java:254)
at haven.Widget.draw(Widget.java:282)
at haven.RootWidget.draw(RootWidget.java:61)
at haven.UI.draw(UI.java:137)
at haven.HavenPanel.redraw(HavenPanel.java:255)
at haven.HavenPanel$1.display(HavenPanel.java:77)
at com.sun.opengl.impl.GLDrawableHelper.display(GLDrawableHelper.java:78)
at javax.media.opengl.GLCanvas$DisplayAction.run(GLCanvas.java:435)
at com.sun.opengl.impl.GLDrawableHelper.invokeGL(GLDrawableHelper.java:194)
at javax.media.opengl.GLCanvas$DisplayOnEventDispatchThreadAction.run(GLCanvas.java:452)
at java.awt.event.InvocationEvent.dispatch(InvocationEvent.java:199)
at java.awt.EventQueue.dispatchEvent(EventQueue.java:461)
at java.awt.EventDispatchThread.pumpOneEventForHierarchy(EventDispatchThread.java:269)
at java.awt.EventDispatchThread.pumpEventsForHierarchy(EventDispatchThread.java:190)
at java.awt.EventDispatchThread.pumpEvents(EventDispatchThread.java:184)
at java.awt.EventDispatchThread.pumpEvents(EventDispatchThread.java:176)
at java.awt.EventDispatchThread.run(EventDispatchThread.java:110)



why won't it work?
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