The Ghost of Christmas Future, II

[loftar]

Or perhaps you could have it so after someone logs in to their account and before they are allowed to select their character to play the Client/Server scans all files and code in those files connected to the client/makes up the client such as the classes etc. And if anything is modified against the Default or Base/Dev code then it doesn't allow the player to log their character in. If just one extra space or character ends up in any code for the client then it just doesn't allow people to log in. Simple and effective.

In that case, the modified client could just scan the default client files and send those.

They all do a fine job at catching people modding and changing files and banning them. Even going as far as taking some people to court and of course winning. Right in their EULAs it explains that anyone who attempts to modify the IP after purchasing the license to use the game can be subject to lawsuit.

That is indeed exactly how they do it: not through technical means, but by having whole teams of GMs that police the game for suspicious behavior and try to find cheaters. There's no way Jorb and I can replicate that effort even if we wanted to, which I quite doubt we would. Software like Warden just catches the most inexperienced and naïve modders (which, to be sure, probably makes up a great part of them). The situation would be exacerbated for Haven since it can be such a competitive game and its stakes are so high, also, so we couldn't even afford to miss anyone by use of less-than-perfect heuristics.

[YarPirate]

*sigh* that's not exactly how they do it. That would be hefty cost to get people to search for cheaters when there are millions of players. The Servers do all that work for them. If something requires legal action, like someone trying to hack the servers, then these companies have been known to sue people. Other than that they just ban their accounts and don't allow a new account to be created on the same credit card.

They get the Server to scan the games root directory. And don't allow the game to be played if the client is modified... I know what you are saying but if the person isn't using the Default client to begin with they wont be able to connect at all.

I don't think you guys are understanding what I am trying to tell you.

Like I said if this code is available where is it? If you actually care about implementing such a thing I will take a look at it with my friend.

[loftar]

They get the Server to scan the games root directory. And don't allow the game to be played if the client is modified...

Like I said, if that's what they did, then a modified client could simply keep a copy of the default client around and send file from it instead when requested. That is guaranteedly not how they do it.

[bmjclark]

The thing is, even with games like WoW which has entire departments dedicated to catching these people, the game is still filled with bots. I know someone who plays wow who botted for 6 or so years before he got caught, and he wasn't exactly discreet about it. If these big companies can't even police their games i don't know how you can expect jorb and loftar to.

[TeckXKnight]

While it's technically true that these companies have levied lawsuits against client modders, it's not quite accurate to say that they've targeted individuals. These lawsuits (Nintendo v GameGenie, Blizzard v MDY Industries, etc) solely target businesses and organizations that seek to profit from client modifications and hacks.

I've also been around since the UO/EQ days and gosh, client hacks were just as common in those days. One thing that ticked me off about the main UO server was how useless the hack detection was. I'd watch bots macro train skills for players for days but I'd end up getting slapped into jail because it decided that I copied 3 scrolls within an equal span of time and this meant I was botting. Lineage the Blood Pledge ran into similar problems. It was a huge embarrassment for the game when they did an article on the highest level players in the US servers only to find out that the top player was cheating. Now client mods and bots are a common, inescapable blight in Lineage even to this day.

I won't deny that users do eat bans for it though. Some of my friends are actually fairly big in writing client mods for Mabinogi still. Every once in awhile they get a month long ban for suspected rule-breaking activity but it doesn't stop them in the slightest. The longest ban was for 2 years so they just hopped on a proxy and made a new account while still publishing mods. This was another case where I was incredibly annoyed with the hack detection that they used; so many innocent players ate bans for two years because their activities fit within the criteria the hack detections were looking for. I lost a lot of friends in Mabi a few years ago around the Generation 15 update because of that.

As for never seeing macros -- I'd like to define a bot as a complex, glorified macro for the sake of simplicity. It executes command line functions in a very similar manner to how a macro does. By this definition you have always seen and continue to see macros in MMOs across the board, in both paid and free MMOs. Look at WoW. Gold farmer bots are everywhere, people use bots that will auto-target players when multi-clienting, people use bots to level characters. They have been there from the start of the game and even into the Panda expansion they're still there.

I'm loathe to admit it but even I use a macro in games. I've got a 20-click button. Nothing too cheaty but it definitely gives me advantages in games where potential user input is greater than actual user input. I mostly use it in Borderlands and Starcraft, but even in Lineage until they added the potion use timer it was a viable advantage. Not once has a game detected or punished me for that.

So yeah, I stand by saying that these things exist, I'm just fairly sure that they just go undetected by users such as yourself so you can maintain the illusion that the game is perfectly fair. It's a valuable fantasy to establish to keep players happy mind you, but it ultimately is just a fantasy.

[YarPirate]

Ah well if you are worried about bots how about making Sleep a parameter for players. Every few hours in real time characters need to sleep. If they stay up past their bedtime for too many in game days they go crazy and die, something to that effect. There are other ways as well. Having the server check to see if mouse clicks are in perfect sequence and repetitive, check to see if the mouse is moving across the screen properly or teleporting.

There are other ways, just having the client do what the server tells it to do. How is it that CtRL N works on Enders client? Why/how is that possible?

I know there is a solution to all of this without hiring a team of GM's.

I am also making a game and I've been researching this exact problem for a little while now. I guess it really depends on how much the Server is doing.

The client for HnH is simply the Gfx engine is it not?

[YarPirate]

The thing is, even with games like WoW which has entire departments dedicated to catching these people, the game is still filled with bots. I know someone who plays wow who botted for 6 or so years before he got caught, and he wasn't exactly discreet about it. If these big companies can't even police their games i don't know how you can expect jorb and loftar to.

This game sort of needs bots... Not that I use them or ever have in a game. The game I am making is similar in essence to HnH but much different. There will be AI as part of the game period. This game is hard to play by yourself and hard to find people who aren't douches haha to group with. Unless you have a friend in real life that plays with you....

There are ways to check for bots.

Why not just implement a virus in the code that will spread if someone attempts to decompile and modify your IP (directed at Jorb and Loftar)

[sabinati]

Ah well if you are worried about bots how about making Sleep a parameter for players. Every few hours in real time characters need to sleep. If they stay up past their bedtime for too many in game days they go crazy and die, something to that effect. There are other ways as well. Having the server check to see if mouse clicks are in perfect sequence and repetitive, check to see if the mouse is moving across the screen properly or teleporting.

There are other ways, just having the client do what the server tells it to do. How is it that CtRL N works on Enders client? Why/how is that possible?

I know there is a solution to all of this without hiring a team of GM's.

I am also making a game and I've been researching this exact problem for a little while now. I guess it really depends on how much the Server is doing.

The client for HnH is simply the Gfx engine is it not?

lol

[YarPirate]

What? :p

[windmaker]

What? :p

with that level of complexity u have two options:
1) make ur own game and do it.
2) pay to loftar for do it.