Release Date Trailer: Eternal Alpha, Aug. 21st 2015

[RedKGB]

Yes, off work and back for the first 4 days of playing. \o/

[Robben_DuMarsch]

Civilization?

Unfortunately, I think the only similarity that Haven 1.0 has to a civilization simulator is that there is a transition from hunter/gatherer production to some sort of industrial and agrarian means of production.

Beyond that, the players play it like it is any PvP MMO.
I think Jorbtar have said in the past that they recognize this (not in these words, but in spirit) and constantly consider ways to evolve the gameplay to make the social (and therefore societal) element more complex.

Tall order; I have faith they will do something good with attempt #3.

[haelmut]

Why you even compare HnH to Civ when HnH is sandbox crafting rpg. And players dont play it like only "PvP MMO", its just that you only see people who come to kill you coz you dont do anything else other than doing nothing while wasting lifetime in game waiting for them to come after you.

Any other people that actually play game understand its unique, exciting crafting\producing\trading\village developing\politic aspects, where you really need skill and passion to succeed, where you need Leader, where you need Loyal team. They communicate and work together. Even writing bots is cool, why not id legitimise it somehow.

Sure some of this aspects can be modified and im sure they will but game is already amazingly social, far more than any other game.

But for scrubs liek you it will be always bad and compared to bad games like Civ, coz HnH is not that easy.

[Robben_DuMarsch]

My only comparison of HnH to Civilization was that they both fail to simulate the creation of civilization.
Civilization is a tactical war game, "inspired" by the growth of civilization.
Haven and Hearth 1.0 (in its current state) is very much a PvP MMO, "inspired" by the growth of society and culture.

When I say PvP MMO, I mean people play with their primary goal to kill other players.
There are a few exceptions, such as the roleplaying or peaceful communities, or the hermits that work on mega-projects, but these are the small minority.

You seem to confuse the "social aspect" we are discussing in the context of building a civilization with the more simplistic goal-oriented chatting that takes place between players as they grind out production.
I don't mean deciding who feeds the cows, who cuts the wheat (or more accurately who manages the bots that perform these tasks), or who you choose to raid.

In the abstract, what is missing is the exchange that should take place between people, the necessity of relying on others that you don't even know; Giving way to an implied social contract between the individual and those that they associate with indirectly, rather than just those you directly interact with.

But by all means, if Haven in its current state is enough to satisfy you, I won't tell you that its wrong for you.
However, before you assume I am a scrub, you should probably get to know me a bit better.

[borka]

When I say PvP MMO, I mean people play with their primary goal to kill other players.
There are a few exceptions, such as the roleplaying or social communities, or the hermits that work on mega-projects, but these are the small minority.

Guess this "minority" has a different view on being the minority

In the abstract, what is missing is the exchange that should take place between people, the necessity of relying on others that you don't even know; creating an implied social contract between the individual and those that they associate with indirectly, rather than just those you directly interact with.

Isn't the only implied social contract to be aware that your scents can be tracked ?!? i wonder how one could implement "the necessity of relying on others that you don't even know" ?

[Robben_DuMarsch]

When I say PvP MMO, I mean people play with their primary goal to kill other players.
There are a few exceptions, such as the roleplaying or social communities, or the hermits that work on mega-projects, but these are the small minority.

Guess this "minority" has a different view on being the minority

You raise a good point - I don't think the majority of players that come to Haven have the primary goal of killing players, so I admit some inaccuracy in saying that exceptions to the "PvP MMO" crowd are the minority, at least as an absolute statement.
But the way the game is set-up, the "PvP MMO" players are the ones that stick around and make up the vast majority of active players at any given time.

Of course, I have nothing to base this on other than my own interaction with people in the world and my previous village experiences, but I feel extremely confident that my experience is an accurate representation of the game at large.

An exercise for you:
Count off in your head the number of large populous cities that you know, their political affiliations, and if the groups primary focus is PvP. I can't think of any that weren't, except for Emerald City and the ill-fated Brodgars.
Take a look at the discussion of in-game activities. It is almost solely a conversation about people killing and/or raiding other people: Requests for scents to be tracked, and bragging about kills/raids.

I don't think this is an unpopular idea, the players seem to identify Haven with its open PVP aspect:
People compare the game to another where the sole objective is to kill and/or cannibalize other players.

In the abstract, what is missing is the exchange that should take place between people, the necessity of relying on others that you don't even know; creating an implied social contract between the individual and those that they associate with indirectly, rather than just those you directly interact with.

Isn't the only implied social contract to be aware that your scents can be tracked ?!? i wonder how one could implement "the necessity of relying on others that you don't even know" ?

Haven was close at one point.
Unfortunately, it sunk as Atlantis - but half finished.

I would propose a few ingredients accomplish this-

A proper balance of scarcity of materials and goods by some mixture of:
- Their rarity in the world
- The difficulty of obtaining them because they are distant
- The complexity in their production
- The permanent consumption of these valuable materials and goods

The ability to better yourself by these resources by force:
- Raid and steal valuable goods
- Destroy claims and take territory from others to obtain natural resources
- Kill people around a natural resource to ensure that the resource remains in good supply
- Claim, secure, and defend resources to deny access to others

The likelihood of repercussion for using force to obtain these resources (usually) outweighing the value of the forcefully taken resource:
- Ability to hunt down perpetrators of crimes with a reasonably high degree of certainty
- An absence of mechanics that allows criminals to effectively insulate themselves from any retaliation


What would this do?
You need to work with others over a larger geographical area to obtain maximum effectiveness. (You couldn't just import everything you need to your city then become entirely self-sufficient.)
You understand that cooperation is the logical and optimal path forward.
People still want to kill each-other and often act illogically, so conflict will still exist, and this will need to be dealt with.

Haven was close, but with the advent of bots to ease production, high amounts of easy LP reducing the need for specialization, free access to teleportation, and the advent of the ubiquitous brickwall (among other things) undermined this delicate interplay of interests. Now, as in PvP MMOs, most players simply grind their way to PvP viability and travel the world in search of people to raid and/or kill and/or grief.

[borka]

An exercise for you:
Count off in your head the number of large populous cities that you know, their political affiliations, and if the groups primary focus is PvP. I can't think of any that weren't, except for Emerald City and the ill-fated Brodgars.

We all know the number of "large populous cities" and what they're up to - that brings me back to my pretty much sarcastic question about " how one could implement "the necessity of relying on others that you don't even know" - you'd have to implement a different behaviour in humans We all know how it goes when you try to act outside of the masses that rather run with the "strong" pack than socialize or solidarise with the weaker ... (while i'm not excluding that old worlds behaviour of AD originally wasn't just reacting - "the pack" mirroring real world behaviour ... )

To be honest i'm more interested in area communities than large populous cities ...

Take a look at the discussion of in-game activities. It is almost solely a conversation about people killing and/or raiding other people: Requests for scents to be tracked, and bragging about kills/raids.

Look at Amanda44, LadyV or my post count and then take a look at dafels, tkearns, ozzy etc. postcounts ...
Not to forget the good old "Only bad news make headlines" ...

And why should the guy whom didn't get summoned for leaving vandal scents on claim and not bashing his whole stuff but been given him the chance to "repair" the misfortune post about that? Or the guy that i met on the mountain and gifting him Edelweiss because not running away? Or the beginner that got some curios and tools for free?

We've seen only few of those "thank you" posts because congress is like a newspaper ... i wouldn't mind to have a "thank you" subforum to show the other side that
happens daily different times (and prolly more often than raids).

I too do see much too much a PVP MMO in HnH too and less a socialising MMO and have tried to playstyle against that, hoping the devolopment by loftar and jorb is going to equal that more and more, but the typical human behaviour when it comes to "packing" can't be changed by software ... (see first answer)

[Repercussionist]

Literally just made some q69 creamy cock.

Oh, and the game looks really sweet, too.

[mvgulik]

But the way the game is set-up, the "PvP MMO" players are the ones that stick around and make up the vast majority of active players at any given time.

Of course, I have nothing to base this on other than my own interaction with people in the world and my previous village experiences, but I feel extremely confident that my experience is an accurate representation of the game at large.

Seems to me your using a sample pool with exactly ONE element. And I don't think that accounts for something that could be considered a accurate representation at large. (it still could, but that would just be one of those random coincidences Nature likes to trow our way.)

[Oddity]

This looks pretty fucking sweet.

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