Game Development: Bed & Breakfast

Announcements about major changes in Haven & Hearth.

Re: Game Development: Bed & Breakfast

Postby Chakravanti » Sat Sep 26, 2009 3:05 pm

Well today, 37 hearthlings are playing. So I guess most of the ubers aren't TOO affected by teleportation.

@Sabinati - Yes, I realize how the system works. Did I mention 1600 fucking bricks and no mass transit system? OH wait....that's right....ALTS.

Yeah I KNOW the travel system was broken. And IMHO this si a GREAT way to fix it. Or would have been, if it were done after the important shit were taken care of first. But we'll probably get 56 more crazy new kill you in your fucking sleep features before boats. I'm sure Carts will be the best form of mass transit EVER and there will be no way to teleport with them.

T-4 - Heart Attacks, the new status effect feature that will probably kill you in your sleep.

rabid fanboys

LMFAO

Yeah, I say give it a week. THat's what I'm doing. If shit isn't fixed by then...I doubt I'll continue to play. I didn't join an MMO to be so stuck the fuck out in BFE and have no social life. I mean, I know SOME people did....but I didn't. I didn't expect this shit until a boat release at least. One-two weeks off at least. No Fucking ETA. Oh yeah. FUCK YOU AND YOUR BRICKS, SUCKER. >.>

I repeat.

ALT ABUSE FTW!


I thought the development was supposed to move toward forming communities and trade? This just encourages macro farming crops (for banners), but FUCK YOU if you don't have an uber fucking PC. My shit is about as good their server machine. But the fuck draw rate kills me if i have larger than a 5x10 crop on my screen. 2D sprite based shit should not cause this much drag. Oh what's that? Bitch you don't need a hardware cursor. suck up the lag and deal with getting murdered before you can respond in the new combat system.....which will be implement....TOMMOROW MUAHAHAHAHA. Yeah btw...you can be murdered in your sleep so be careful which beds you log out in.
because now bulk trade is completely impractical.

This.
dozens of points you can port to.

Within ONE village....oh and any you happen to have been given a writ of passage through. (does this shit work?) How about the Writs for shit that matters like Smelters, Donation bins, etc. Oops, forgot about shit that matters.
Last edited by Chakravanti on Sat Sep 26, 2009 3:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Game Development: Bed & Breakfast

Postby Jackard » Sat Sep 26, 2009 3:06 pm

btw teleporting fifty feet away - total black bar - took about half an hour to recover from

fifteen minutes if it doesnt like interrupted sleep
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Re: Game Development: Bed & Breakfast

Postby Potjeh » Sat Sep 26, 2009 3:10 pm

Chakravanti, come to the H&H IRC, I'd like to discuss those things with you.
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Re: Game Development: Bed & Breakfast

Postby Laremere » Sat Sep 26, 2009 3:12 pm

I don't see how this update is as broken as you say they are. You still have roads that you can build and walk on to travel somewhere. You still can teleport, it's just now more meaningful to go a distance. Additionally, boats take a very large amount of graphical work. All pant items have to be drawn in the sitting position, along with drawing the boats. (of which both have to be drawn at least 5, possibly 8 for all the angles)

The devs have in the past released stuff that makes the game harder than intended in an area before they implement a feature that is much better than before. I politely ask to stop the bickering, or then again you can continue being pansies.

Anyway, great update, good work guys!
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Re: Game Development: Bed & Breakfast

Postby jorb » Sat Sep 26, 2009 3:19 pm

Our development is fast paced. We do try make it a priority to fix critical problems ASAP. When deciding on numbers for a system like this, It's very hard for us to have a clear idea on a) How much agility does most players have? and b) How far should they be able to travel using that agility? We are really restricted to using guesstimates. Having an opinion on the average agility of the decently developed characters, and relating that agility to the relevant locations those players would want to go to, in terms of distance, is nigh on impossible. (I do not know how far you guys are normally spread out, what kinds of distances you'd like to travel, how often you'd like to do so, and whatnot.) We have to test. In order to test, we need to implement. Testing this in a closed environment is a bullshit idea. That means I'd be the only one doing any serious testing on it (Loftar dicks around a lot when he plays. I'm definitely more of a gamer than he is.) First, I can't do it in a meaningful way, since the game is very much based on a philosophy of emergent gameplay. I do not expect people to cartograph entire regions by their onesises, for example, I expect maps to get copied. Setting up a system of usable Crossroads is a community effort based in the philosophies of rational self interest and emergence, which means I can't test it by myself. I need other players. I need you guys.

A lot of people are obviously scared/angry/whatever about this development, but our ambition with this system is obviously to increase the ability of players to penetrate the map, not reduce it, as I wrote in my wall of text the other day. In the future, It will probably be possible to quick travel to your claim at any time (The reason you can't right now is because of implementaional difficulties, the claims do not save their location) and possibly also to have a "Mark" action, where you can mark a point arbitrarily, and then quick travel there as long as you do not set a new mark, for some quick back and forth between a hunting trip and your camp, for example.

Also, there is a case to be made that some of you have lucked out. You've built camps all across the place, your relevant locations are spread out miles apart, and now you can't really travel between them in a good way. To some extent, this might be as it should be. When building a new camp you'll obviously be able to keep this dimension of the game in mind, and not settle at unreasonable distances. You could consider this broken, but we cannot allow development to institutionalize bad practices just to keep the status quo. Sometimes, the status quo has to be broken for the game to move forward. Obviously that will hurt for some people. I think this is why we still call it an alpha.

Let me be clear: We have several systems in the pipeline that might alter the pace of the game completely. Be a little zen about stuff like this.

This system has several advantages. First, it allows villages to become localized centers of trade and commerce, to which outlying farmers travel, not because they are necessarily members of the village, but in order to use their Crossroads. Second, this system allows *objects* to be insta traveled. Which means you can now trade in anvils, beehives, herbalist tables, and whatever. Third, it removes a lot of boring walking around -- I expect Brodgar to set up Crossroads to Swampcrazed and Cakeport ASAP, for example. Previously, those distances -- which are still very small compared to the total scope of the game world -- were a bitch. Now they could be reduced to a nuisance. Fourth, it does all this while still allowing distance to remain a very important factor.

Our plan was always to make it so that you could reduce weariness by drinking alcohol, and that will, guaranteed, happen next dev session, which is rarely more than half a week or so away. I also see a lot of potential fun in equipment that can make travel easier for you: Ranger's boots might be a good place to start. Traveling with the wind on your back (Wind cape? A potion made from wind?) could also make it easier.

Oh, and about these boats that everyone is bitching about: The problem is not drawing the boats, although that is a bit of work in itself. The problem is making the character sprite capable of interacting with the objects. That workload is huge, and I would like to think it through before I start working on it. I have been thinking about it, and I have drawn some stuff for it, but please understand that boats is a pretty big undertaking.

But I suspected we'd get some heat for this update, it is controversial, and I do feel some of the raeg. I do think most people will come to appreciate this system once its better understood, though. Some people are quick to attack systems they do not understand. I haven't heard anyone complain about steel for a while, and we got shitloads of negative first reactions on that.

We also have a balancer on the black arts that is fairly easy to implement, and should get put in next session, so we haven't forgotten about that either.
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Re: Game Development: Bed & Breakfast

Postby skrylar » Sat Sep 26, 2009 3:33 pm

jorb wrote:Oh, and about these boats that everyone is bitching about: The problem is not drawing the boats, although that is a bit of work in itself. The problem is making the character sprite capable of interacting with the objects. That workload is huge, and I would like to think it through before I start working on it. I have been thinking about it, and I have drawn some stuff for it, but please understand that boats is a pretty big undertaking.


The fidelity of the graphics isn't really high enough to make tons of animations just for this; using the ultima series as an example... the earlier ones just showed a boat that moved around that people were assumed to be on, 7 just used fixed chairs for horse carriages, boats and flying carpets, and the MMO incarnate just had everyone stand on it (though you were free to place a chair on it and sit on that chair, technically speaking).

It sounds more like a code issue of having objects capable of being on a moving platform.
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Re: Game Development: Bed & Breakfast

Postby bajuba » Sat Sep 26, 2009 4:00 pm

I'm not sure what rate the travel weariness goes down from sleeping in a bed, but I slept for 3 days in game and my bar went down 15-25%.

I suggest that sleeping for 8 hours in game time should be all thats required to completely restore the buff.

I can't wait to see how much alcohol or other consumables reduces the buff.(hoping for a lot)
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Re: Game Development: Bed & Breakfast

Postby Chakravanti » Sat Sep 26, 2009 4:13 pm

From: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=2044
Voideka wrote:Alt thieves and their ilk are, like macroing, another symptom of a problem with the game, rather than the players. Just like before, we need to ask why people do these things, and fix the cause.


[quote
jorb wrote:Our development is fast paced.


Translation: Gtf-over good features being implemented with shitty timing. It's alpha. ~.^

1 does not translate to 2. Some more time, discussion and warning would have been nice. I was waiting till today before I could even have a chance to respond to the original thread with my thought and love for the idea because this new system, quite literally, has saved Innsmouth. I AM NOT BITCHING ABOUT THE NEW FEATURE. Just it's timing. I think it's great, just out of sync. I'll a duck a duck. Your priorities in developing this game are off, IM-N-HO.
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Re: Game Development: Bed & Breakfast

Postby loftar » Sat Sep 26, 2009 4:15 pm

skrylar wrote:It sounds more like a code issue of having objects capable of being on a moving platform.

Indeed? Might I ask where you got that idea? Not that there aren't any code issues (mostly related to specifying policy on what actions one should be capable of while being mounted on something), but as for that particular issue, I would like to point out that it has been solved since the earliest days of the game and is in active use by, oh, you know, the Lift action. ;)

skrylar wrote:My point is that they are starting a million branches, not finishing or moving on any of those branches, starting even MORE branches, and when someone comes to call them on it those people are bitten by rabid fanboys who seem to be forgetting.

You seem to have the most interesting opinions on our development process. :)

To contrast, I'd like to mention that some of the branches that have, in fact, been finished or moved on along include (but are not limited to): not being able to interact with objects behind other objects; replacing the slow account server; making the resource tree more complete (while you might argue that adding more resources is "starting new branches", it is also necessary to fix up the various lacks of resource paths); balancing various forms of griefing (the first act of balancing having been the tracking system); continuous improvement of creature AI; and lots and lots of bugfixes of varying size and importance, each of which I don't bother to mention. I might also mention that this teleportation system is something I could hardly call a "new branch"; it is the further continuation of one we started when we added Hearth Fires (they haven't always been there, you know), and went on along when I added restart points at login. Also, while it hasn't gotten to the point of implementation, we have been actively considering and discussing the specifics of fixing up the combat system, the black arts (which will, in all likelyhood, be implemented next session), and other things.

skrylar wrote:T-(-1): Carts get stuck in gates because of a malformed hit box. (has this been fixed yet? lofty said it was just a matter of jorb shrinking the hitbox)

Fixed. A long, long time ago, even.

skrylar wrote:T-2: Map reset; rivers get added and the only way to cross is a skill which is very VERY dependent on godly amounts of a stat which was previously completely useless. [...]Teleporting is removed, now requires a stat which was previously useless.

So you suggest, instead, that... they continue being useless? Surely, you could figure without an advance warning that they would, at some point, become useful?

skrylar wrote:Ostensibly cities are getting some crossroads feature, yet Jorb will probably have to draw the crossroads too (which he doesn't like drawing often, because this is why T2 isn't done yet).

But... the crossroads are drawn, no?
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Re: Game Development: Bed & Breakfast

Postby Chakravanti » Sat Sep 26, 2009 4:16 pm

skrylar wrote:
jorb wrote:It sounds more like a code issue of having objects capable of being on a moving platform.

Possibly..but don't we already have that with carts? Why not just adapt cart system to boat system. Giving different sized boats with varying costs varying storage capacities. Then it's up t the player to expand the holding capacity with better containers. Trying to write a new system just sound like making shit more complicated than it is.
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