Keeping you Posted, #1

[RickyRio]

[Jackard]

I think it being expanded by how many ever SG's kind of ruined it, too much land and not enough players.

Dear God no... I've been disappointed by the size of the world since World 3 when we had a 9x9, and I thought even THAT was too small. Some of us want to take our communities to the far end of the world, away from raiders, politics, and in-fighting. Truly intrepid bandits still found us, but mostly we had peace. This was particularly fun because the center of the map ended up being where the powerhouses congregated, and travelling there for trade could be a perilous venture.

But they always tended to have the best stuff, so travel we did.


I want a huge, expansive world where you can travel through miles of wilderness, and eventually stumble onto some remote hermitage or mostly unknown village of quiet frontiersman.

I want teleportation removed so distances on the map MEAN something, and travelling to trade with your neighbor is something to plan for. I want to see people stick close to home to build their communities, with traders being the intrepid adventurers who cross the bandit ridden middle-lands to move goods and resources to those who have them, to those who want them.

Bring us a huge expansive world we can each carve our own chunk out of... Don't shove us into a box where we HAVE to play by the rule of kill or be killed. (But nor make there be a way for it to be completely avoided). Exploration and discovery is my favorite part of this game, and with a tiny map... Well... There's nowhere to explore and every damned square inch is occupied. It's crowded here.. Even now.

The question I already know the answer to is: "Will everything finally start decaying again? Even on a claim? Will FOOD finally start decaying so we're not enjoying 2 year old Blueberry Pie scavenged from someone elses cupboards after the world inevitably goes dead again?"

My thoughts exactly. I like the idea of being able to create nonperishables, but perishables should always be superior.

I've also been a huge supporter of the 'stat support' diet.
Stats have the following features:
1 - Stat level (Obvious, what your current stat level is)
2 - Food dependency (The higher your stat is, the higher FEP of appropriate food you have to eat to maintain it or it will decay... Only once this minimum is reached will it have the possibility of advancing)
3 - Maximum Food Intake (One cannot simply starve/feed... You may still need to eat to avoid starving, but there will be a maximum amount of FEP you can benefit from in a given time period. In the above system (part 2) this number represents the maximum FEP you can gain above your maintenance cost.
4 - Offline Stat Decay (You cannot starve to death offline, but if you do not log in and feed your character on a fairly regular basis, your stats will be subject to decay.. Thereby avoiding the 'banked warrior alt' problem. The character built only for this purpose and kept in reserve until needed.)

The Two Side LP Bank Solution
1 - Make it impossible to retrieve LP from claims of killed characters. The claim disappears upon death of the character. I think this would be the best solution, preventing the god-fuck-all huge claims made for no other purpose than this.
2 - If the Developers do not see LP banking as an issue, then implement the above policy, and allow the creation of an 'LP Phylacetry' involving some combination of pearls, steel, and silk and numinae (rare but not ultra rare items). Make this a liftable item, with it's maximum bankable LP limited by it's quality. Combine this with a 'One Phylacetry per Alt' rule, and we have a solution that SHOULD be satisfactory to those who want to bank LP, and those who don't want ginormous meaningless claims to take up huge swaths of land for the purpose of banking LP. And yes, LP Phylacetry's would be destructible by other players, having a soak similar to that of a personal claim. The Phylacetry will destroy itself upon the death of the owner character, so for this to be effective method of hamstringing your opponent you must destroy it FIRST.

Are you from the Bay 12 forums? Your suggestions seem to focus on what would be 'cool' or 'gritty' without fully thinking them through.

[Mernil]

But being able to build a palibasher from a fresh alt in a matter of minutes is just an invitation to botting and abusing.

Umm... Why? You don't literally build one from scratch, you use resources you gathered yourself in your village on your characters. You earned the palibasher in more than a few minutes, the only thing you did in the few minutes is actually consumed the food.

Yes HnH and realism don't walk side by side, but at some point I believe, there are things that can transform an arcade game to something a bit more serious.
Capping food consumption would make botting much less profitable, and help noobs to catch up with older people, which is, IMHO, something good.

About what follows in your post I was mostly answering to GrapefruitV.

Though to be fair, I'll elaborate :
People with access to mass quantities of food are well-established players (that's just a fact).
And whatever the time players spend farming food, botters win this game.

Then, with food variety, (and if you don't use it, too bad for you) and advanced tablesets, it is really easy to push up already advanced chars.

This means that oldest characters using bots are literally the bests on the whole server (and nobody can't do anything about it).

Now if you do want to have a fairly balanced game, you need to have a progression curve.
So either remove variety division on FEP bar. Or, add a cap on daily food consumption.

Then, since you can read everywhere IRL that eating different kind of food daily is healthy, I guess the variety stuff is a good thing.
What's left is the possibility of eating 35 tons of food a day.

So yes, you gathered that food and its yours. Maybe build some alts, and feed them evenly with the cap.
That would make characters less imbalanced, and allow great farmers to have an army of alts to carry on when your main character dies.

Still pretty good for good farmers, and the game would be more attractive for newcomers.

[Kaios]

People with access to mass quantities of food are well-established players (that's just a fact).
And whatever the time players spend farming food, botters win this game.

Then, with food variety, (and if you don't use it, too bad for you) and advanced tablesets, it is really easy to push up already advanced chars.

This means that oldest characters using bots are literally the bests on the whole server (and nobody can't do anything about it).

Now if you do want to have a fairly balanced game, you need to have a progression curve.
So either remove variety division on FEP bar. Or, add a cap on daily food consumption.

Then, since you can read everywhere IRL that eating different kind of food daily is healthy, I guess the variety stuff is a good thing.
What's left is the possibility of eating 35 tons of food a day.

So yes, you gathered that food and its yours. Maybe build some alts, and feed them evenly with the cap.
That would make characters less imbalanced, and allow great farmers to have an army of alts to carry on when your main character dies.

Still pretty good for good farmers, and the game would be more attractive for newcomers.

I don't know, I think they are already on the right track with running/performing certain stamina draining tasks = a drain on hunger. They just need to balance it out a little better and also find a way to prevent any "plough, drink, eat" sort of circumstance.

[Lunarius_Haberdash]

Are you from the Bay 12 forums? Your suggestions seem to focus on what would be 'cool' or 'gritty' without fully thinking them through.

Jackard, I've been playing since World 3. My suggestions are based on what I feel will help level the playing field and make the overall playing experience for everything from new player to top end. Oddly, I've never spent much time on Bay 12, though I do love Dwarf Fortress quite a bit.

I spent a lot of time thinking through my suggestions, and considering various elements of game balance over the entire life of the game while doing so. Things as they are aren't working unless you're a 'go for the guns' type player. I heard the most disturbing comment the other day that the 'end game' *IS* raiding and combat, a perspective I think is part of the problem. I believe the way the system is built now encourages that behavior, and not the 'building of civilizations' professed to be the professed goal of Jorb and Loftar according to the 'About Haven' page.

Combat should be a thing, raiders and thieves should be a thing, but right now... they are THE thing. This game can be so much more, and it starts by leveling the playing field a bit more.

Of course, a lot of that could be solved if we could find a way to eliminate botting, but botters gonna bot.

[Mernil]

I don't know, I think they are already on the right track with running/performing certain stamina draining tasks = a drain on hunger. They just need to balance it out a little better and also find a way to prevent any "plough, drink, eat" sort of circumstance.

I don't like to shoot on the ambulance but actually the whole drinking / eating system is fucked up.

The true problem is that water and stamina shouldn't be related with each other.

There should be a bar for hydration.

Using stamina should deplete hydration bar (sweating - related to strength).
Then stamina should replenish over time (really slowly - related to constitution), and this would cause someone to be hungry (basically).

Now for hydration bar, if you aren't hydrated then you'd suffer a penalty to your attributes (penalties increasing overtime).
And if lacking water for a relatively long period of time (3+ days) you would start losing HHP.

Then sitting on a chair would help recover stamina, as sleeping would, but at a slow pace.

This implementation of basic needs would prevent people having the more water from being the better in PvP (you can't catch me, you can't run from me), and this would also prevent food abuses.

Now this is a lot of wizardry that's for sure, and the current system isn't too bad really, but hopefully our Master Wizards will tend to do something like that because there is a real issue there.

Note that I'm not an expert in nutrition, please don't throw stones at me. This idea would need to be digged more deeply.

[Ninijutsu]

Sitting in a chair should recover stamina very quickly, if implemented. Imagine doing 3 minutes of work to sit in a chair for 10 minutes. Nothing would get done.

[Mernil]

Sitting in a chair should recover stamina very quickly, if implemented. Imagine doing 3 minutes of work to sit in a chair for 10 minutes. Nothing would get done.

IRL you would be able to do a bit more than 3 minutes of work before being tired, hopefully.

[Ninijutsu]

Lol, okay, maybe my example was retarded, but you get the point. It sucks being forced to do nothing for any amount of time. The great thing about Haven is that you get out of it what you put into it, no matter how much or little that is.

[Mernil]

Lol, okay, maybe my example was retarded, but you get the point. It sucks being forced to do nothing for any amount of time. The great thing about Haven is that you get out of it what you put into it, no matter how much or little that is.

Maybe some tasks would require more stamina than others.
For instance digging clay or cutting trees would be hard, while crafting tiny abacuses or roasting meat would be easy (and restful).

This would prevent botting to an extend.