Game Development: Die Noobs, Die.

[theTrav]

Yeah, its not like many people still use the normal client, and have no way to avoid getting aggro sometimes, and impossible to get away sometimes. They should be given massive debuffs and skill loss for something completely out of their control.

I didn't mention skill loss. They have control over where they travel, some places are more dangerous than others.

Also, the only way to know how strong are animals and how good is your armor/weapon/combat skills is to give a try. It's fucking testing!

Which is why I don't think they should be killed outright. I'm just saying that if you get mauled by a bear, you probably shouldn't be able to go try again half an hour later.

How is it "lacking consequences" if you are basically forced to wait half an hour to escape an animal you never chose to attack in the first place?

I think half an hour is an extreme exaggeration. Maybe 2-5 minutes under the current system, 15 tops.

[giftiger_wunsch]

I didn't mention skill loss. They have control over where they travel, some places are more dangerous than others.

...and not only are noobs randomly thrown into these locations when they first start, but they also won't know how to find safer areas.

I think half an hour is an extreme exaggeration. Maybe 2-5 minutes under the current system, 15 tops.

I've had a bear on my property right next to my hearth fire before, and it's been stuck there between my buildings, etc. for well over half an hour. I had to go offline and wait it out. Another time, I had to run like hell while it was doing coin-raising battle effects etc., get knocked out as far away from my hearth as possible, and then log out and back into my hearth. And of course, I lost all my SHP and some of my HHP.

And then there's the fact that when you've only been playing a short time, the only possible method you will have for restoring HHP is leeches, which can be dangerous and dependent on being able to find a swamp. And that's assuming you've figured out that leeches will restore your HHP. They're pretty unreliable and restore it very slowly at best, so other than being told by more experienced players or reading it on the wiki, it's not even obvious that leeches have any beneficial effects.

What more do you want to happen? Would you prefer it if you had just started playing the game, and been immediately killed by a bear and had to make a new character already? Or worse, you've spent a couple of days getting the hang of the game, you think you're ready to try making yourself a hut and staking a claim, and BAM, all your hard work gone because a bear stumbled into your hideout.

[theTrav]

I didn't mention skill loss. They have control over where they travel, some places are more dangerous than others.

...and not only are noobs randomly thrown into these locations when they first start, but they also won't know how to find safer areas.

Doesn't New Brodgar have a charter stone now? My understanding is that the wilderness is supposed to be a dangerous scary place.
I also have little sympathy for new players who aren't prepared to read a forum/wiki or ask someone in the IRC chat, however that may be my DF bias coming through.

I think half an hour is an extreme exaggeration. Maybe 2-5 minutes under the current system, 15 tops.

I've had a bear on my property right next to my hearth fire before, and it's been stuck there between my buildings, etc. for well over half an hour. I had to go offline and wait it out. Another time, I had to run like hell while it was doing coin-raising battle effects etc., get knocked out as far away from my hearth as possible, and then log out and back into my hearth. And of course, I lost all my SHP and some of my HHP.

Sounds hilarious, did you laugh or cry?
The bear getting on your property is a bit unlucky though, didn't you lay down a claim with a roundpole fence around it? Probably can't do that straight away as a new player... Well, that's the life of a noob, wilderness survival is supposed to be challenging.

And then there's the fact that when you've only been playing a short time, the only possible method you will have for restoring HHP is leeches, which can be dangerous and dependent on being able to find a swamp. And that's assuming you've figured out that leeches will restore your HHP. They're pretty unreliable and restore it very slowly at best, so other than being told by more experienced players or reading it on the wiki, it's not even obvious that leeches have any beneficial effects.

You completely ignored my mention of healers and a more developed healing/restoration system. This would require social play though, some people believe the correct way to play this MMO is single player.

What more do you want to happen? Would you prefer it if you had just started playing the game, and been immediately killed by a bear and had to make a new character already? Or worse, you've spent a couple of days getting the hang of the game, you think you're ready to try making yourself a hut and staking a claim, and BAM, all your hard work gone because a bear stumbled into your hideout.

Now you're just being stupid, I specifically stated that I did not suggest character death. I didn't suggest animals tearing down claims and buildings either.

I think the wilderness survival part of the game is pretty tame as it is, it could stand to be made a little tougher.
That's not what I was originally posting about though, I was more posting about established players who can largely ignore any small wounds they take in combat with the local wildlife. I'm all about adding risk to hunting.

[Peter]

The bear getting on your property is a bit unlucky though, didn't you lay down a claim with a roundpole fence around it? Probably can't do that straight away as a new player... Well, that's the life of a noob, wilderness survival is supposed to be challenging.

Quick note here: you may not have noticed, but, er... this isn't wilderness survival. It's a game about wilderness survival. A good game starts easy and gradually becomes difficult...

[theTrav]

A good game starts easy and gradually becomes difficult...

Disagree on subjective sentiment

[Sever]

no context intended

[Peter]

A good game starts easy and gradually becomes difficult...

Disagree on subjective sentiment

OK, a game trying to send an artistic message via the mechanic of starting very difficult and becoming easy could certainly be good, but for a game that a large audience- certainly the majority of players- would like, a positive curve is objectively better.

In the same way that complete sentences are objectively better than fragments.

[theTrav]

an oldie but a goodie

[theTrav]

OK, a game trying to send an artistic message via the mechanic of starting very difficult and becoming easy could certainly be good, but for a game that a large audience- certainly the majority of players- would like, a positive curve is objectively better.

Popularity is not a guarantee of quality. I'm quite comfortable being in a minority.

In the same way that complete sentences are objectively better than fragments.

Disagree

[Alamarian]

However you wish to judge a good game, popular ones do not have hard starts. They ease players into the game. H&H, in contrast, dumps new players into a fairly hard start. In most MMOs, newbies are protected in some manner. They can't be killed in PvP, they have a starter area, something. In H&H, they have no protection and are often stuck in the wilderness with some of the highest level enemies in the game. If you were unlucky, you might have your shoes broken minutes into the game and not have lumberjacking, resulting in copious thorns, etc.

Whether this is a problem or not is another matter. Dwarf Fortress has a niche, despite the learning curve. It's still a niche though.

In the same way that complete sentences are objectively better than fragments.

Disagree

Put the trolling motor down.