The Ghost of Christmas Future, II

[painhertz]

and that's where an improved, more combat based seige system comes into play

So force your opponents to engage you even though they don't have the numbers or the capacity to fight back. End up killing them all and force them to quit. What happens after that? go back to haven-farmville?

I could see them implementing more than one method, such as a brute force invasion taking less time to get in but exposing yourself to greater risk or stealthy infiltration, taking more time to get in but exposing yourself to less risk.

I want some damned Thief tools to match my play style..... Stealth, pick pocketing, Wall climbing/grappling, poison etc etc. Just a HUGE section that is left out of Haven, surely all of these things existed in Iron Age Germany.

[Amanda44]

I have a very general ambition that it would be fun if one could -- in various ways -- reduce one's footprint in the world to a whisper, provided one is willing to live under perhaps somewhat humble circumstances.

Hidden trap doors that actually need to be detected, earth mounds that are hard to notice, trees providing some amount of hard stealth to things around them, not just players but objects and whatnot as well.

One could come up with lots of things.

I'm loving your thoughts on all this and am enjoying the discussion on it. However .......

A lot of the ideas sound nice. Traps, small hermit camps in pictures, casual mining, etc., but in reality we will see client mods to display the traps, hermit camps being steamrolled for fun and walls upon walls upon walls within a confined space for the pvp circle-jerk

This ^^ was immediately what sprang to my mind, it's pointless when that is not how the game will be played due to custom clients.

I ran a slight experiment a while back where I decided to RP a druid out to plants trees and crops in the wild, clear away old bases, and whatnot, and generally just heal the world.

I know that this is not your main point in that quote but, I do this all over my area and I know others who do it in theirs too, I've had a lot of new players settle since I've created room from removing old bases, re-planting and grassing over paved areas.

I have also made and up-kept a garden area below my base, unclaimed area, with crops and items for newer players, I also put my excess livestock there for players to take, kill, shear, w/e and to my utter amazement, no-one has ruined it and everyone has followed my runestone directions, lol, and also helped to keep it nice and stocked up, it has been there for months now, and my area is visited by end game players, mid game and newbs alike. It just goes to show that not all players are out to spoil it for everyone else.

I keep meaning to do more to it, it's only small atm, like planting higher q tree's and a bit of paving but time ...... there is never enough time.

[loftar]

This ^^ was immediately what sprang to my mind, it's pointless when that is not how the game will be played due to custom clients.

That's why Jorb said "hard stealth", though. As in, the server not even sending the info to the clients.

Wall climbing/grappling

I know, I've been wanting that since forever. The main question is just what to do about such things as the defender just lining the insides of the walls with houses or whatever for you to get stuck in once you've scaled the walls.

[painhertz]

This ^^ was immediately what sprang to my mind, it's pointless when that is not how the game will be played due to custom clients.

That's why Jorb said "hard stealth", though. As in, the server not even sending the info to the clients.

Wall climbing/grappling

I know, I've been wanting that since forever. The main question is just what to do about such things as the defender just lining the insides of the walls with houses or whatever for you to get stuck in once you've scaled the walls.

Force a 3-5 hex space requirement for buildings to be built near walls? i liked in the original Wastleland that you could climb walls and whatnot but have a chance to fall and damage yourself/break limbs if your skill wasn't high enough. Similar mechanic in Darklands. the space requirment would also solve a TON of exploits with putting houses right up against/on walls.

[Amanda44]

This ^^ was immediately what sprang to my mind, it's pointless when that is not how the game will be played due to custom clients.

That's why Jorb said "hard stealth", though. As in, the server not even sending the info to the clients.

Ahh, right, I didn't know that is what that meant, yes, it would work then ...... thanks for explaining.

[loftar]

Force a 3-5 hex space requirement for buildings to be built near walls?

Well, sure, I've considered it and still am. I just find it so... ugly.

[TeckXKnight]

Wouldn't a more elegant solution just to be that structures require enough space to walk around them as part of the construction grid? That'd also stop silly things like boxing people in with houses, like we've seen in the past. If you really want to make it so you can have buildings practically sharing a wall or hugging a palisade, you could create a modular exception that had limits on structures it could connect. Such as three houses could be strung together and perhaps would be connected within their instance as well, or a house is directly connected to a brick wall. As long as their as reasonable limits and restrictions it wouldn't be exploitable I don't think.

[Kaios]

Well, sure, I've considered it and still am. I just find it so... ugly.

Yes, it really sucks when you have to sacrifice things 'looking good' because of mechanics which only have the intention of preventing other mechanics from being abused or taken advantage of. I hope you do have luck in finding other ways to remedy such a situation before going in that direction however.

With respect to scaling walls and mechanics intended to... discourage(?) someone from using it without good reason, might be nice to allow the ability to build a pitfall trap for such a scenario. I'm not entirely sure in what way that could be implemented to include a sort of saving throw for those who attempt to scale the wall and have a chance at avoiding the trap.

[Potjeh]

Einher is bad and you should feel bad for thinking of keeping it. If grinding back to combat readiness after death is too tedious, than so is grinding to get there the first time. You should think how to improve the fun/grind ratio rather than building a game on kludges like einher and waiting for the inevitable crumbling of such flawed foundations.

[Granger]

My random thoughts about combat, all IMHO and aimed toward fruitfull discussion:

• Stamina recovery shouldn't be instant
• Carried weight should matter for speed to some degree, equipped weight a little more
• Changing equipment while in active combat should neither be instant, nor impossible
• Equipment and combat abilities should work Rock/Scissor/Paper: one strength, equal against itself, one weakness
• Groups (when working together) should have an anvantage over individuals (but preferably not by attacking themselves, or trailing some anthills to gain stances)
• Geometry: Attacks from behind should be harder to counter
• Agility should be a tradeof to damage/armor
• Fleeing should always be a reasonable option
• Mistakes should be costly, but with the possibility of recovery
• Every hit should cause damage
• Skills should matter, but only to a point
• Death should not send you looking for another game

About gear

Someone in heavy plate armor (or carrying a bathtub worth of water to replenish stamina, speaking of which: did someone ever tried to drink while running RL?) should not be able to catch up to someone fleeing unencumbered. So weight should factor into movement speed, with the option to drop of some to gain speed. This would give the option to flee with the penalty of leaving equipment behind.

Since teleportation seems to be on the way out: Moving combat (mounted on horse or boat) should factor in load of the mount/vessel, so a merchant should be able to throw merchandise overboard to gain speed with the ejected cargo only float for only a short while (and taking a little time to salvage) before sinking, giving raiders the choice between gaining potential valuables and pursuing the victim.

Heavier weapons (with higher damage potential against heavier armor) should give the target better opportunity to dodge/evade (since they take longer to wield).
Heavier armor (with higher damage absorption potential) should give the target better protection while reducing the speed (of attacks and movement).
Bottom line: higher damage/defense correlates higher vulnerability against ranged while lower damage/defense correlates with ability to close in/stay ranged/flee.

Gear should not make invincible, armor might absorb a part of the damage an attack can cause but in case someone whacks you with a club (in case a helmet protects your head from splitting) you'll have at least your ears ring and your brain hurt.

About skills
In case an untrained thief tried to rob fictional Bruce Lee (or Chuck Norris) he would most certainly die quite quickly - but still: this is a game.
Skills should matter to make them relevant, but only below the point where the existance of them no longer makes sense to the ones not (or no longer) having them.
So IMHO there needs to be a balance in the form that the possible existance of high skills won't lead to a superman vs. toddler (without access to kryptonite) situation.

One way i can see is to limit (cap) the benefits/penalties granted/imposed in combat from skill deltas at some level, similar like it is done in current H&H combat with advantage: you can gain/lose advantage only up to a point, further is not possible since the scale ends.

Question is how this could be applied to things like STR/AGI vs. encumberance from gear/inventory weight - it would make no sense to have a fully geared up tank knight running faster than a freshly spawned toon...

Some scenarios

Single plated knight might quickly cut down unarmored peons in range if (and only if) they stay/come in his range, while going down against said peons if they swarm him using their agility to get out before being hit.

Some agile raiders might triumph over some unsuspecting villages (since they can surprise them) unless these mange to make a quick trip through their armory to gear up.

A group of peons should be able to take down a single knight if they swarm him, but a group of knights working as a unit can be untouchable by them - but the knights will only be able to strike fear (and loot) since the peons will be able to flee (unless cornered by the group of knights).

A group relying on a tank (plate knight) to supply a close combat death zone will be limited by speed of knight, so they either move slowly and are vulnerable against ranged attacks or they split up leaving the knight exposed to archers and themselves to close combat.

An archer might be effective against someone ranged, but the more his target manages to close the gap the archer should have more and more problems.

A newbie is chased by a bear and flees, leaving a trail of equipment behind to get away quicker.

Downsides of Permadeath and mechanics to deal with them

Foreword: yes, i know the stance of Jorb and Loftar about permadeath. Nevertheless, they at one point invented Einherjeraspekt to deal with the negative side aspects of permadeath in a non-casual (im terms of time invested in a character) game, which in current form is imho broken because it only makes sense for combat characters while being way to easy to obtain for well developed groups (see the 'numen zero' project, in case you have the materials ready it takes less time to get to the needed numen points than the effect lasts).
On the other hand the impact of death to a non-combat player is so huge that quitting because of being slaughtered is not an anecdotal event, having a farmer/crafter die will make the toon inactive (apart from logging in to ingest curios or starve/forcefeed) for a to-long timeframe to be enjoyable (which i guess should be the main reason to play a game).

While i see the need of downsides when dying, i also see the need for players to have hope.

Especially with the aspects of alts being discouraged, a permadeath game (unless casual in the likes of realm of the mad god where you are be back to have fun in a matter of moments) needs mechanics that enable a very important aspect after death: To get back into the game.

Applied to the slow pace of H&H (and keeping the game mechanic of scents in mind) we need on one hand a somewhat timely means to exact retaliation to keep the drama rolling (while adrenaline is up, rage is burning and scents are still active), on the other hand something enabling meaningful rebuild of character abilities to make reincarnation (for further involvement as a valuable productive member of the current social group) a reasonable option.

While i don't have a complete solution for this i think that something in the likes of einherjer for the retaliation part (maybe with a 'free' activation in case you fight your ancestors killer) combined with something to trade resources and time to permanently regain parts of the ancestors abilities to get you back in the game within a reasonable timespan (a RL week, or two - i'm open for discussion on this).

Numbers pulled out of thin air to describe the basics of the proposed mechanic:
Lets say you have a fresh ancestor, that would give you a pool of ancestural LP which could be managed through (let''s call it) rituals (existing shrine, whatever). Then you could einherjer the pool for 8h, which would consume 10% of the initial pool value (so 10 uses and it takes away the ability to use the other part) -or- you could inherjer (or whatever) through some obscure ritual (which eats a reasonable cost of medium-difficult to get resources) leading to transfering 10% of the current LP pool value to the new toon + knocking him out with 75% (maximum, not current) HHP damage ('do it while not healthy you'll die' as time limit). If needed (= Jorb and Loftar being sadists) the operation could drain more from the pool than what is transfered, but i think since the return is diminishing some LP will be lost since the cost to regain them would be prohibitive.

Then fighters could get back to the fight while support characters maybe wouldn't be any longer being exclusively stashed away behind brickwalls (in favour of throwaway alts for everything).

Civil discussion please.