Your Tax Dollars at Work

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Re: Your Tax Dollars at Work

Postby loftar » Sun Aug 08, 2010 1:02 am

mvgulik wrote:
Uriel wrote:mhm, fun topic q; but gravitation of the black hole would destroyed everything to pieces before it could go near it - I may be wrong, but last time I studied about this it was a long time ago.

Depends on what you classify as being the black hole. The singularity. I would think so. For the Event Horizon, not necessarily.

Depends on what you mean by "destroy". :)

If you mean "deformed beyond all recognition and beyond all possibility of life", then the lucky suicidal fellow will definitely be destroyed by the time he reaches the event horizon.

If you mean "integrated with the singularity and thus without possibility of even recovering information on what it was originally", then it is not obvious that that even happens. That is how black holes were originally thought to work; the singularity being an exactly defined "particle" with only one possible state. It was realized only later that, if that were true, then black holes would have an entropy of zero, and also reduce everything that falls into them to an entropy of zero, which clearly violates the second law of thermodynamics. It was showed by Gerardus 't Hooft that a particle inside the event horizon affects the event horizon by way of its mass, even leaving an imprint on the outside of the event horizon uniquely determined by its state and location inside the hole. If that is true, then matter that is sucked into the hole isn't actually "destroyed" in any absolute sense.

As a matter of trivia, it is that latter realization that gave rise to the conception of the holographic principle, building upon the idea that black holes be considered as maximum-entropy objects rather than zero-entropy objects; that is, having more entropy than anything else conceivable that occupies the same volume that the event horizon occludes. Interestingly, however, Hawking showed that the entropy of a black hole is proportional to the surface area of the event horizon, rather than the volume it occludes, which, in effect, means that the maximum possible entropy of a given volume of space is actually limited by its boundary area, which also effectively means that the amount of information that can be contained within that volume is limited in the same way (and, if I recall my popular science correctly, the case is strengthened by the fact that Hawking showed that the amount of information contained in the volume is even integral, at 1 bit for every four Planck area units of boundary).

Since that is so, it would, in turn, mean that the entire internal state of a volume of space can be encoded in its boundary area (that's the holographic principle). It might mean that our conception of space as three-dimensional is just yet another illusion of living in space under Newtonian conditions. (Of course, it should be mentioned that an exact study of black holes would require a theory of quantum gravity, and that the premises of the holographic principle are therefore proven by means of round-about methods of classical relativity and quantum mechanics whose premises may collapse under the articulation of such a theory.)
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Re: Your Tax Dollars at Work

Postby spectacle » Sun Aug 08, 2010 1:46 am

Ok, so when will black holes be implemented in the game? Swimming isn't deadly enough, we need another noob trap. :D
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Re: Your Tax Dollars at Work

Postby weirdguy » Sun Aug 08, 2010 2:06 am

Life's hard enough without a curve in the space/time fabric screwing up all of my shots.
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Re: Your Tax Dollars at Work

Postby 503ace » Sun Aug 08, 2010 4:30 am

buy another computer to be your server, if im correct it should reduce stress on the server due to other junk on the main.
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Re: Your Tax Dollars at Work

Postby Brackwell » Sun Aug 08, 2010 6:31 am

loftar wrote:
mvgulik wrote:
Uriel wrote:mhm, fun topic q; but gravitation of the black hole would destroyed everything to pieces before it could go near it - I may be wrong, but last time I studied about this it was a long time ago.

Depends on what you classify as being the black hole. The singularity. I would think so. For the Event Horizon, not necessarily.

Depends on what you mean by "destroy". :)

If you mean "deformed beyond all recognition and beyond all possibility of life", then the lucky suicidal fellow will definitely be destroyed by the time he reaches the event horizon.

If you mean "integrated with the singularity and thus without possibility of even recovering information on what it was originally", then it is not obvious that that even happens. That is how black holes were originally thought to work; the singularity being an exactly defined "particle" with only one possible state. It was realized only later that, if that were true, then black holes would have an entropy of zero, and also reduce everything that falls into them to an entropy of zero, which clearly violates the second law of thermodynamics. It was showed by Gerardus 't Hooft that a particle inside the event horizon affects the event horizon by way of its mass, even leaving an imprint on the outside of the event horizon uniquely determined by its state and location inside the hole. If that is true, then matter that is sucked into the hole isn't actually "destroyed" in any absolute sense.

As a matter of trivia, it is that latter realization that gave rise to the conception of the holographic principle, building upon the idea that black holes be considered as maximum-entropy objects rather than zero-entropy objects; that is, having more entropy than anything else conceivable that occupies the same volume that the event horizon occludes. Interestingly, however, Hawking showed that the entropy of a black hole is proportional to the surface area of the event horizon, rather than the volume it occludes, which, in effect, means that the maximum possible entropy of a given volume of space is actually limited by its boundary area, which also effectively means that the amount of information that can be contained within that volume is limited in the same way (and, if I recall my popular science correctly, the case is strengthened by the fact that Hawking showed that the amount of information contained in the volume is even integral, at 1 bit for every four Planck area units of boundary).

Since that is so, it would, in turn, mean that the entire internal state of a volume of space can be encoded in its boundary area (that's the holographic principle). It might mean that our conception of space as three-dimensional is just yet another illusion of living in space under Newtonian conditions. (Of course, it should be mentioned that an exact study of black holes would require a theory of quantum gravity, and that the premises of the holographic principle are therefore proven by means of round-about methods of classical relativity and quantum mechanics whose premises may collapse under the articulation of such a theory.)


You smart bastard. Thanks for making me feel inadequate about my own intelligence. Oh well. Where's my Curious George book..
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Re: Your Tax Dollars at Work

Postby mvgulik » Sun Aug 08, 2010 8:31 am

loftar wrote:
mvgulik wrote:Depends on what you classify as being the black hole. The singularity. I would think so. For the Event Horizon, not necessarily.

Depends on what you mean by "destroy". :)

That to.

loftar wrote:If you mean "deformed beyond all recognition and beyond all possibility of life", then the lucky suicidal fellow will definitely be destroyed by the time he reaches the event horizon.

The bigger the mass of a black-hole the bigger the E.H. radius and with that less gravitation differences per distance (in the direction to/from the center) at the E.H. Or with a black hole with a big enough mass you could safely pass the event horizon without being dissembled ... yet. (preventably a none rotation black hole.)

@Big text.
Interesting, but way beyond my general knowledge base. :)
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Re: Your Tax Dollars at Work

Postby Gulluoglu » Sun Aug 08, 2010 8:46 pm

Without having read this thread past the last few posts, I'm just going to assume our tax dollars are somehow furthering black hole research.
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Re: Your Tax Dollars at Work

Postby Uriel » Sun Aug 08, 2010 8:56 pm

h&h isn't a typical game, so the subject of research also isn't q;
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Re: Your Tax Dollars at Work

Postby Brackwell » Mon Aug 09, 2010 12:33 am

Gulluoglu wrote:Without having read this thread past the last few posts, I'm just going to assume our tax dollars are somehow furthering black hole research.


Among other things..
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Re: Your Tax Dollars at Work

Postby mvgulik » Mon Aug 09, 2010 5:52 am

"our" ... seems to me the "donation event horizon" is not working properly in some cases.

Anyway. Sighing off on BH stuff. but ... Black Holes FAQ Nice FAQ about "you know what" for those that are interested in the basics.
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