Input Wanted: Civilization

[jorb]

Warning, huge map file: http://www.seatribe.se/roligabilder/test-map.png

Above is a newly generated civilization map (please note pretty colors). We've been dicking around with the civ algorithm a bit (Actually: Loftar has, I've just been looking at the pictures), and these changes will be taking effect on the server throughout the next 1-2 hours or so, so any sudden changes in creature level is due to this.

What we've been trying to accomplish is: Small villages scattered around, separated by tracts of relative wilderness. One problem here is that the central most grids are weighed down a bit by a lot of inactive Hearth Fires, which should probably not be counting towards civilization at all. On the whole, I think this map has the right feel to it. A lot of the small scattered settlements have radiuses around them that are large enough to be meaningful, while still not drowning the map completely in civilization. The transitions between creature level over distance also seems okay. Creature levels do spike rather fast, but still slow enough to be noticed before it's too late, and still allowing for, hopefully, enough intermediate level game for intermediate level players to hunt. What say ye?

Also, we've been having a little discussion, and I think we agree that this is a problem: Civilised areas are largely deserted because there is no incentive to remain in them. All hunting, and thus, levling is done in Mordor. Mordor also provides security in seclusion.

True or false?

Assuming that is true, the solution we are in principle agreed upon is: Characters are leveled in Mordor -- Production, with the introduction of quality, is leveled in civilized areas.

This means that the high level hunter will, or so is the ambition, depend on a support structure in the more civilized areas, where he can access, by way of trade, high quality goods that would be hard or impossible to make further out in Mordor. Good steel weapons, good armor, good food, good drink, bad women, good sleep and a nice bath. This also gives players a direct incentive to want to civilize their immediate surroundings, which they haven't got at present. Ideally, the civilized areas should perhaps also depend to some extent on hunters to bring in rare raw materials, game and hide, and warn of incoming dragons. Generally, though -- the hunter should be more dependent on civilization than vice versa.

Hand-in-hand with this might also come attempts to increase the danger levels in outmost Mordor by quite a bit.

We are a bit undecided on which mechanic should bring this about -- I'm in favor of a direct civilization modifier on item quality, loftar favors a more indirect method of increased object/item decay in Mordor, calling my suggestion arbitrary in terms of realism -- but are we on the right track to begin with? Would this work? Why? Why not?

[Xarx]

I don't like your idea Jorb for the reason it will take away the possiblity of being the secluded master craftsman who has hidden himself away to perfect his art.

You are sure on the right track with this though, at the moment anyone can pretty much make anything by themselves making trade pretty useless and only when you are too lazy to wait or do it yourself.

[KoE]

I think Mordor's isn't exactly as effective a security measure as it once was. My 'secluded' spot was raided and now functions as a hunting lodge. Granted, I don't think it's even near Mordor anymore (haven't had a chance to load the whole huge map file), which is probably a function of the current small map.

I give the general idea a thumbs up, though I'd appreciate the ability to be an effective craftsman even in a relatively small settlement - not necessarily the best, but good enough to keep people geared out in someplace in the, say, 4-6 area (which seems close enough to the idea of 'frontier' for me). I say that mainly because after moving back to Bottleneck, my play experience has been hindered by crushing lag and I plan to head up/found/whatever one of the (hopefully smaller) outlying B12 settlements so as to keep that from being quite such a problem. Then again that may be fixed by the map reset clearing out all the extraneous crap, so eh.

Overall, I like the idea. Hope to see it implemented soon.

[jorb]

I don't like your idea Jorb for the reason it will take away the possiblity of being the secluded master craftsman who has hidden himself away to perfect his art.

I have actually thought of this, and I have two potential solutions for it. The first is that it might actually be possible. Assuming civilization was more based on construction than hearth fire count, you could perhaps build up a decent fort in the wilderness by your onsies and then live that life there. Civilization in a very local area would then, hopefully, be usable for good crafting. The second might be to implement some sort of credo, "Hidden Master" or "Deranged Hermit" or "Secluded Scholar", which could grant the very specific bonus of being able to craft some things without needing civilization modifier. That latter thing assumes my model of more direct civilizational effect on crafting, though.

[Xarx]

I have actually thought of this, and I have two potential solutions for it. The first is that it might actually be possible. Assuming civilization was more based on construction than hearth fire count, you could perhaps build up a decent fort in the wilderness by your onsies and then live that life there. Civilization in a very local area would then, hopefully, be usable for good crafting. The second might be to implement some sort of credo, "Hidden Master" or "Deranged Hermit" or "Secluded Scholar", which could grant the very specific bonus of being able to craft some things without needing civilization modifier. That latter thing assumes my model of more direct civilizational effect on crafting, though.

The Credo idea sounds great, however I'm already seeing ways in which it could be abused. Maybe you could include a negative modifier to hunting to stop people from becoming a Hunter/Producer.

[Junkfist2]

It does feel slightly weird, I won't lie, but honestly ANYTHING to get players grouping together in town hubs and centers of commerce and production is a good thing in this game. So I'm for it.

As a starry-eyed future suggestion though, perhaps there could be large project buildings that could be built only within a village's influence that would project a radius to fulfill the same function and replace the mechanic at a later date. (sort of like when you construct different kind of "tech" buildings to tier up in RTS games)

[Onionfighter]

I think it would be useful for there to be a way to gain lp that does not require wilderness. Currently, nothing really beats hunting. Making civilization useful for something would be great for keeping people together and retaining wilderness. I cannot really tell if there is a difference between the new civ map and the old system, perhaps it would be best to experience it.

[PhaedrothSP]

It was a bit of a shock to see a level 8 boar in what once was a level 4-5 forest, especially since I had just killed a level 4 bear just moments before the whole change happened. But if it brings people together then I'm for it. I just need to be more careful outside now. :/

[Colbear]

I think it would be useful for there to be a way to gain lp that does not require wilderness. Currently, nothing really beats hunting. Making civilization useful for something would be great for keeping people together and retaining wilderness. I cannot really tell if there is a difference between the new civ map and the old system, perhaps it would be best to experience it.

What if making high-quality goods gave more LP than making low-quality goods?

[Laremere]

I like the look of the new map, though your right that the drop off seems quite steep.. I assume that you more or less changed the drop off rate?

An idea that popped into my head while reading the topic is instead of a single drop off rate, have civ be calculated through two separate calculations. First, count up the civ effect a square should have like you currently do. Then do the initial civ spread calculation (call the civ calculated in this stage "chicken" for reference in the rest of this post). After that, go over the map and for each square, do a second, less steep drop off, sweep from each square's chicken civ. But each civ square only takes the highest civ spread out of all the civ that would be given to it in this sweep. The two calculations are added together, weighted to taste.

With the current system, the only thing that is in thought is how much civ is around, with less meaning the farther away the civ is. This system would take into account how far it is away from a civ "hotspot" ,so to speak, how hot the hotspot is, and also how much civ near by directly affects it. I've spent a good amount of time trying to thing of how civ could be calculated, but the only thing I could thing of at the time were different single equations, which through thought ultimatelly never yielded much of a better spread result than the current one had, though I think calculating it with dual equations would infact yield a significantly better result.

If you don't get what I'm trying to say, tell me and I'll try again.