Game Development: Keeping up with the Joneses

Announcements about major changes in Haven & Hearth.

Re: Game Development: Keeping up with the Joneses

Postby Gallade » Mon Jul 22, 2013 10:32 pm

Windforce wrote:Probly abit too late but maybe making objects/building flagged as "built by player X" and only player X can break it easier (maybe with a sledgehammer at the very least logically) than someone who didn't built it.


Though, that would be similar to "owning" it. It looks like the kind of "noob-friendliness" that HnH doesn't need.
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Re: Game Development: Keeping up with the Joneses

Postby Evilsoshi » Tue Jul 23, 2013 8:43 am

Ah a update, it's good to see that it's still getting em. This wasn't really a big update. (don't ram me to death)

Say why put the update notes on the forum? Would it not be better to have it on the front page?
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Re: Game Development: Keeping up with the Joneses

Postby borka » Tue Jul 23, 2013 1:31 pm

frontpage wrote:If you are looking for our changelog, we have moved it to a forum from now on.
;)
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Re: Game Development: Keeping up with the Joneses

Postby Flame » Tue Jul 23, 2013 1:55 pm

Anyway, also if i'm criticizing part of the updates, in this update there was a couple of fancy usefull things.
To be just with devs i'll write what is good-bad and what outcome could bring that update.

Dead player objects ("bodies", to you simple folk) can be destroyed as soon as their players are logged out. A blood spurt animation indicates if the player is still logged in.

1- No more dead body traps. This mean, no more exploit it for hunt (trolls-bears). (a minor conseguence. There are thousands other way to trap-hunt)
2- Major effect: no more Lock Palisades/ Lock houses/ Lock something with dead body. Or simple being locked by yourself with your unluky dead main in front of your house. That was a minor issue, but annoying.

Question: When you destroy a body, it turns into bones or disappear? If so there is a small conseguence that could be unfair: A manhunter kill a raider and want his skull but have to wait 1 h for body decay(or so). The raider can run and smash the body soon as possible. Basically ther's a chanche that the "skull" system is another type of war or just a "childhood revenge" against your killer. This works only when two big players have a fight. A noob vs a manhunter is not a usefull skull so hardly the noob will try to smash his old body for nothing.

Proposal:
Add an option to CUT the head of the body. Fight to smash a dead body is a nonsense dance in a game full of metagame and nonsense. Put a head on a pike or a skull on a pike...both are logic and cool at the same time.



Hearths created through hearth spawning have no soak and significantly less health than normal/built hearths.

1- The HeartFire-Battle is over. Is just an annoying and useless lost of time for both players, but nothing serious like before. I can't think any other way to exploit it to obstacle building, so seems that it works. We'll see what can bring out the player fantasy.
2- Your friend-Alt-husband-girlfriend-anyotherpeoplethatyouknow have a useless heart when he spawn. REALLY DANGEROUS. This update forces noobs to learn in few hours of the game works, gain enough lp for a hf and a dream to build it, or they will be easily victim of random heartFire smashing trolls in th wild. This open to trolls a new way to enjoy.

Proposal: This is complicate. The whole hf system is wrong and half solution aren't enough definitive, so i'm gonna omissis what i've in mind, 'cuz this will be tested on another game.
Anyway this brings me to a suggestion:
I strongly disagree the "spawn in the wild" if the hf are weakest than before, so this is a further proposal.
-If you walk on a foreign claim and log off on that claim, you leave "Hiding Scents" that last for a lot. This need a good perception to be seen and mean that someone have sneaked on your claim and ninjaloggedoff. You can "kick him out" from the claim and he'll be warped on a random tile near you claim, but outside the claim.
-If you log off on a normal tile but when you log in it's a claimed land, you'll be advised that you'll be warped outside the claim.


Destroying construction objects no longer costs HHP.

1- All the storages signs are now easily smashable.
2- All the "trap a player with signs" are now destroyable withoutdie for hhp.
3- And people will not die for the scents update before reach the wall they mean to raid.

Comment:
I'm not fully ok with the first point. The scents update brings only trouble on different things, when he was made to "prevent server overload". There are other way to stress the server, so the problem is not solved, and this update brings 300% troubles on all the players.
Enter in a claim and smash those precious storage items thare are so usefull, without leave a single scent, is Dumb.
Trespass a claim and lose hhp is even more Dumb. Exploring is unjustly penalized.

Proposal:
First, build a Storage tile. We need them, and we need that they are really ample, to put in 300 logs or 400 bricks. CREATE IT, damn, before make further dumbs update against storage signs.
Once we'll have a storage, you can put a decay to signs and the "no scents" update. You can also burns all the signs for what we care, but use the brain a little more, feck.


Houses and strongboxes now require some drying time before they can be built.

I've told what i think of it. Is stupid, useless, and don't solve the main problem. Keep to "banning" what player uses to troll, will just bring the game to have more rules than what you can imagine, without never find the real solution. This reminds me the italian law, where one can't fix the problem on the origin and then Add Condition to the laws. Have this brough a real emprovement? No, of course. A small update solve just a small problem and one can find another way to exploit this open game.
Every item you'll add in future will be an Exploit source. Every update will be an exploit surce. Every thing you'll change, will bring conseguences that one can't see so easily.
Ban a way to use something is not a real solution.
Give to players the freedom to Solve it in game, is the best solution of an open game. You are just humans, you can't see everything. Work with the updates following this logic.


Rams, houses and walls now present the amount of time left before they can be built/used.

Just usefull.


There's now a five minute limit on how often you can hearth spawn a new character in any given, local area.


Question: "you" means "the same player" or every player will have to wait 5 minuts if someone have used that hf few minuts ago?
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Re: Game Development: Keeping up with the Joneses

Postby jorb » Tue Jul 23, 2013 2:53 pm

Flame wrote:
jorb wrote:Houses and strongboxes now require some drying time before they can be built.

I've told what i think of it. Is stupid, useless, and don't solve the main problem. Keep to "banning" what player uses to troll, will just bring the game to have more rules than what you can imagine, without never find the real solution. This reminds me the italian law, where one can't fix the problem on the origin and then Add Condition to the laws. Have this brough a real emprovement? No, of course. A small update solve just a small problem and one can find another way to exploit this open game.
Every item you'll add in future will be an Exploit source. Every update will be an exploit surce. Every thing you'll change, will bring conseguences that one can't see so easily.
Ban a way to use something is not a real solution.
Give to players the freedom to Solve it in game, is the best solution of an open game. You are just humans, you can't see everything. Work with the updates following this logic.


What do you imagine that this means? Apart from nice-sounding generalities, what do you propose we do about the problem instead?
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Re: Game Development: Keeping up with the Joneses

Postby Potjeh » Tue Jul 23, 2013 3:25 pm

Move from reliance on soak to a more interactive form of base defence. Something like towers that shoot at intruders to ward them off ;)
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Re: Game Development: Keeping up with the Joneses

Postby Windforce » Tue Jul 23, 2013 4:20 pm

Potjeh wrote:Move from reliance on soak to a more interactive form of base defence. Something like towers that shoot at intruders to ward them off ;)


I have been thinking of something like this. Make it so Bows cant shoot tru solid objects but you can built archer/watch towers inside your town and a ranger can "mount" it and shoot at ppl outside and also gives protection to them. ;)

PS Hi Potjeh :P
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Re: Game Development: Keeping up with the Joneses

Postby MagicManICT » Tue Jul 23, 2013 5:13 pm

Have you guys been playing Salem or something?
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Re: Game Development: Keeping up with the Joneses

Postby Deathlord » Tue Jul 23, 2013 5:14 pm

Would be quiet awesome if you could put a third container in your boat instead of a passenger
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Re: Game Development: Keeping up with the Joneses

Postby Flame » Tue Jul 23, 2013 6:43 pm

Well jorb, H&H is half free and half not. Day by day we can see that this formula is a pain in the ass, forcing you and loftar to update things that player exploits
What's the main technique that players uses? The "Not walkable/indestructible" objects.

There are 2 freedom that player should need.
1- The freedom to Decostruct. Take lots of time, make you gain part of the resources back.
2- The freedom to destroy. Faster and uses strenght.
3- The freedom to build defences.

In this way, if someone build a house to Perma-lock a noob, that noob will just need enough time to open a hole in the house. It's not a matter of Strenght, it's a matter of time. A day, if needed. This Prevent from trolling? No, but when a player is trolled, nothing is lost. Just a bunch of time. End of the "trololol let's build things" epidemy.
Of course, if you're raiding you should destroy instead of "decostruct". You spend a lot of time, you leave scents, etc. Better smash up everything and raid faster.

"But so, the walls are "decostructable!"
Here comes the True defence. In this game, when someone decides to Attack, he attack. When someone decides to defende... no. It can't be decided. You can't know when you have to log in. There is the need of a real defence.

Choose between:
1- send a notify when your wall is under attack. (lol... that's nerd.)
2- Have automatic defences building.
3- Have npc. (but H&H is against npc)


So, if we ignore the first option that souns pretty useless and the npc option, we should think of something about the defences building. How to avoid an exploit with such dangerous buildings? How to grant the chance to raid?
Well, the actual raid is a sort of Bandits against a small village or two bandits groups one against the other.
If we add defences buildings there will be the need to add offensive buildings and the wars will change. There will be a real fight.

Let's give an example. The classic Arrow Tower.
Arrow Tower:
Must be built on a wall tile. Wooden walls allows wooden torrets. brick walls allowes brick torrets.
Can't be built more than 1 tower per screen. They need to be at a certain distance each others (preventing abuse)
The towers can shoot for all the range of the screen, BUT only on the nearest tiles of the wall. The towers does 0 damage to rams and an average damage to players. Aren't there to kill everybody, are there just to keep safe the walls from random trollers that wish to "decostruct" everything in the world. (preventing decostruction abuse/ don't deny the right to attack with rangers or ram and also forces the raiders to attack in group to use the ram efficacly and faster.)


now is dinner time, but these are some ideas following the "total freedom" ideas. Is a lot of work and most things can't be solved with a click, but i think is time to change route and go back at the beginning, stopping to follow players foolinesh. Consider them as Beta-tester, and they have proved that, in 6 years, the bigger issue of H&H (the massive game exploit) haven't been solved. Then, probably, the method is wrong.
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