I can has cows

Announcements about major changes in Haven & Hearth.

Re: I can has cows

Postby Cain » Wed Dec 16, 2009 11:20 am

Vetarnian wrote:Exactly. I'm glad that charisma (and, I assume, psyche) will have some practical uses later on, but let's not really stretch it, and I can't see how raising cows can have anything to do with charisma.


firstly, psyche is already the most highly prized stat because it is what limits jewelry quality.

It's kind of a stretch, but I could see charisma affecting raising livestock (as long as I don't stop to think about it.) But it's either that or int which will effect it, or possibly perception in some strange way. Perception is already useful if your into that type of thing, and int has at least a couple uses (although it could clearly benefit from some more,) while charisma is de facto useless right now. It would be nice to introduce another skill, even if it wasn't rigorously based in reality.

Plus my charisma is sky-high so you know... ;)
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Re: I can has cows

Postby Chakravanti » Wed Dec 16, 2009 11:39 am

Cain wrote:
Chakravanti wrote:Charisma isn't a placeholder. It's a stat the devs put in because they intend to use it later.


I don't think that word means what you think it does. In fact you just gave the definition of a placeholder as an example of something not being a placeholder. :|

Wrong. Placeholder means it's a item or function that is to be replaced by something else. For example, Spiking the LP costs of black skills and the HP/Dr of walls was/is a placeholder to reduce the incidence of alt thieves and the like until a better system is devised.

Like when a friend holds your place in line for you. You will replace him before before the finished product is achieved.

Charisma won't be replaced. It, like AGI, PSY, INT etc. before it, are intended functions simply have not had their full potential realized yet.
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Re: I can has cows

Postby theTrav » Wed Dec 16, 2009 11:57 am

Cain, I think you just got served...

Yep, it's gonna have to be a dance off
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Re: I can has cows

Postby Chakravanti » Wed Dec 16, 2009 11:59 am

Cain wrote: while charisma is de facto useless right now.


I will admit that this is %70 of my rationale. Though it is in fact very realistic. If you don't know how to properly interact with animals (e.g. Charisma), like humans, You will not get what you want from them.

If I were setting up the system myself in a realistic fashion. I would not make charisma directly affect the quality of animals. Rather, if you are breeding higher quality animals and do not have the level of charisma of their quality their breeding rates will proportionately decline. Milk production would cap lower for cows producing higher quality than one's charisma. Similarly Sheep will be fussy and not produce wool. Not that they won't actually produce it but the odds of you fucking up the collection of wool if you don't have the charisma to handle them becomes higher.

Like silkworms I would set it so that the raising of QL is done purely by selective breeding done by penning animals into an area with roundpole (or otherwise) fences which would receive a gate that wouldn't use a key to create definable boundaries. Chickens would be placed in a coop (One rooster to a flock of hens - else...cockfight) where eggs would be gathered from for hatching in an incubator (Kind of too complicated and posisbly out of theme) or left in the coop and gathered as chicks where there is a stage of growth to seperate males out and pick the highest quality before they start pecking for dominance (And thus murder each other before you have a chance to sort the highest quality....or Quality may autosort itself by the logic of higher quality being a stonger Rooster). Gathering of eggs would cause a fuss if your charisma isn't high enough and some of the chicks would probably die due to your incompetence at handling them.

Sheep and cows would have to be herd with a prod and would be less responsive if your charisma isn't high enough. Herding them around would be for the purpose of selective breeding. In this way you effectively couldn't achieve much higher Ql than your charisma.


Anyway...that's how I would set it up and why I think it's perfectly logical for Charisma to affect domestication. Dev's may have something entirely different in mind. We shall see.
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Re: I can has cows

Postby Potjeh » Wed Dec 16, 2009 3:54 pm

Will you consider adding goats? Goat milk could be the basis of a whole different cheese tree, maybe one that includes dex cheese. Of course, goats should give a lot less milk than cows.
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Re: I can has cows

Postby sabinati » Wed Dec 16, 2009 6:11 pm

you should be able to milk sheep as well, i want to make Magnificent Manchego
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Re: I can has cows

Postby Cain » Wed Dec 16, 2009 7:17 pm

Chakravanti wrote: For example, Spiking the LP costs of black skills and the HP/Dr of walls was/is a placeholder to reduce the incidence of alt thieves and the like until a better system is devised.

Like when a friend holds your place in line for you. You will replace him before before the finished product is achieved.

Charisma won't be replaced. It, like AGI, PSY, INT etc. before it, are intended functions simply have not had their full potential realized yet.


Spiking the lp cost and increasing wall hp/soak is a stop gap measure. A feature you introduce in order to deal with a problem while fully intending to remove it as soon as you can find a better way of addressing the problem. Charisma is a placeholder, because it is useless. It has nothing to do with it being replaced. It exists because they intend to add functionality to it, and it's easier to create a set of stats rather than introduce them one at a time as you need them. It's exactly the same as the 'happiness' meter.


I'm not going to further argue this point.
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Re: I can has cows

Postby Chakravanti » Wed Dec 16, 2009 8:22 pm

Cain wrote:Spiking the lp cost and increasing wall hp/soak is a stop gap measure.


Loftar says otherwise:
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1093

I'm not going to further argue this point.

You don't have to! You could have just checked the dictionary before you posted.

place⋅hold⋅er
  /ˈpleɪsˌhoʊldər/ [pleys-hohl-der]

–noun
1. Mathematics, Logic. a symbol in an expression that may be replaced by the name of any element of the set.
2. a person who holds a government office, esp. one appointed to the position in return for political support or favors.

theTrav wrote:Cain, I think you just got served...

Yep, it's gonna have to be a dance off

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Last edited by Chakravanti on Wed Dec 16, 2009 8:28 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: I can has cows

Postby Jackard » Wed Dec 16, 2009 8:26 pm

oh dear, a definition post

and he ends up using the one for mathematics... lol
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Re: I can has cows

Postby Chakravanti » Wed Dec 16, 2009 8:36 pm

Jackard wrote:and he ends up using the one for mathematics... lol

No, Logic, as is relevant to this case.
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