Dev Diary: Recap Episode #2 -- Skills, Arts and Characters

Announcements about major changes in Haven & Hearth.

Dev Diary: Recap Episode #2 -- Skills, Arts and Characters

Postby loftar » Sat Jan 16, 2010 9:56 pm

This entry of the diary will treat a rather distant future, so please remember as you read it that it is far from set in stone. Especially so when I describe details.

As you all know, the current LP system mostly sucks, and along with it the systems of buying skills and thereby of gaining crafting recipes, combat attacks and constructions (collectively: "actions"). The crafting system itself also has a quite a few aspects that are less than optimal. Some of the specific aspects that I'd like to fix is that (while it's fun to be rewarded for pretty much anything) gaining LP is mostly grindy and therefore very macro-friendly, and the fact that it isn't meaningful (or even possible) to specialize in any way. In particular, if it were meaningful to specialize a character, that would in turn make it meaningful to replay the game from scratch from time to time (or from not-entirely-scratch when dying).

Our current thoughts in rectifying the situation circulates mainly around two areas.

First of all, we should introduce deeper character psychology. One psychological aspect we're considering is "work weariness" (or maybe "world weariness") vs. "fun", which would be the foundation for replacing LP. Work weariness is gained when doing stuff, basically; kind of like stamina drain, but differently proportioned. You don't want to be to weary of work, because that is bad; though it is yet unclear just how it is bad. Maybe the character will refuse to do things; maybe he'll get epic debuffs; maybe he'll spontaneously suicide. Work weariness would be reduced by having fun. Fun can be had in various ways, from eating good food to playing with toys to killing people. Reasonably, the personal beliefs should determine what causes work weariness and what kinds of fun the character prefers. When restoring weariness by having fun in the right ways, the character should gain some substance of thought -- let's call it "Spiritus" just to have a term for it -- not entirely unlike LP, but just how it should work and for what it should be usable is a bit unclear. It should be usable for increasing stats, but it may also be usable for various other things, and it may also have some finer structure so that various forms of Spiritus is better used for some stats or things than for others.

Second, actions should be learned individually and not come en masse along with a skill. Maybe the current skill tree will disappear entirely, maybe it will have other uses (we have some ideas); that is not yet clear. Either way, learning an action should be more involved than learning skills currently is. As described briefly here, they will probably be learned via another part of character psychology currently going under the working-name "curiosities" -- a quest-like system. To quote myself from the link:
loftar wrote:[...]the kinds of quests we've been considering so far are not NPC-based. Rather, we've been thinking more and more of introducing psychological aspects of characters [...], and that these kinds of quests would probably show up as things that the character has become "curious" about. Like "Hmm, this 'clay' looks interesting. If I dig up a couple of more pieces of clay, I might think of something to do with it."

Individual actions will probably also be endowed with per-action quality, that are determined when learning the actions. It may be possible to increase the quality of actions somehow, probably through other curiosities and limited by some character stat(s). In particular, since it should be harder to learn individual actions, it should be possible for characters to teach actions to other players, which will transfer them with lower quality.

I hope it is unnecessary for me to point out that an important point we will keep into consideration is the fact that it must be fun, as opposed to tedious, to learn new actions, and that the game experience must remain meaningful even without a lot of individual actions.

In relation to the revamp of actions, we have considered some revamps of the crafting system, though much is yet unclear about it. The high-level, abstract idea is that it would be fun to be able to learn "master recipes" every once in a while. One such master recipe might be "bread". Such a master recipe would take generic inputs such as "flour" (assuming there are different kinds of flour, such as wheat flour or barley flour), "liquid" (it may be possible to choose between water or milk, for instance) and "flavors" (where one may be able to put in stuff like butter, poppy seeds, honey, and what not). Generally, each combination should yield, not a bread, but a specific recipe for that kind of bread, where the product would have different qualities depending on the inputs. It should probably be a rather involved process, somehow, to create new specific recipes. It should probably be possible to name the specific recipes, so that I can call the bread I've invented "Loftar's Lembas" for real this time, and then teach that recipe to others under that name (and also have it reflected in the tooltip of the product). Certain very specific inputs may yield not new parameterized bread recipes, but specific recipes that we've pre-seeded, so that wheat flour, water, butter and apples would result in the recipe for apple pie. That would make the game more rich in exploration and experimentation. The specifics of this scheme are yet unclear, but I think it should be possible to bring it to concretes, and I think it would be very cool indeed.

Another point that is related to learning actions individually is that the available curiosities should depend on the resources available in the area. We plan to combine that with a new map generator, which would generate very large "terrain zones" or "climate zones", if you will, where each of the various terrain zones would contain different base resources. These would not be entirely different resources, but rather differences in terms of alluvial clay vs. varve vs. quick clay; or firs vs. pines vs. junipers. The various resources would result in different actions being learnable, and while the kilns makable from one type of clay may not be fundamentally different from those makable from another type of clay, there should still be slight differences.

The variations in base resources and actions learnable from character to character should be able to result in the cultural variations alluded to here, and should give rise to possibilities for character specialization.

As I've mentioned in the above linked thread, however, I am very fond of the current system of character creation where you choose virtually nothing at all -- just a name and a gender, where the gender is purely cosmetic anyway, and the name is hardly visible to anyone but yourself now with the new, nice Kin System. I like it very much in that one makes no binding choices at all (that matter) during character creation, and that all choices come as part of players' interaction with the world instead.

Last, it is worth mentioning that one thing that is probably not a problem with the LP/Skill system is the fact that the early game is more grindy than fun and consists mainly of lighting fires and building wicker baskets to gain some real skills. Rather, that is more likely a problem with there being too few things to do, quite simply. As you've seen, we've started to remedy that lately with more noob stuff (not to mention wilderness spawning), and I think we can all agree that the early game is a lot more fun now than it has ever been before.
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Re: Dev Diary: Recap Episode #2 -- Skills, Arts and Characters

Postby Kadol » Sat Jan 16, 2010 10:16 pm

Work is fun. That's my one concern. I like the rhythm of harvesting and grinding and replanting and weaving. I like to look back and see how vast the new grassland has become. I like to see a farm where there is a house for every purpose, dairy, weaving hut, tanning shed etc, storehouses full and new storehouses going up. I feel content and productive when I work like this.

My concern is that you will adjust things so that I can build a house, but then when I go to switch tasks to ploughing I suddenly find I am "work weary" and have to go do something else time consuming instead, like plodging through the forest looking for something inoffensive to kill so that I can get back to my interesting fields.

One solution that would possibly work would be to have time logged out count towards restoring work-capability. I wouldn't mind if I have to log my character out every 10 game hours of labour and couldn't do anything with her that I consider productive for another 10 hours. This might work to address the problem of macroing characters - or at least it would slow them down a bit.
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Re: Dev Diary: Recap Episode #2 -- Skills, Arts and Characters

Postby warrri » Sat Jan 16, 2010 10:26 pm

Id like to see more endgame content rather than making being a noob easier/more fun. You're only a noob for a few weeks, until you realize the endgame content is feeding cows and hunting bears(and griefing other people).
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Re: Dev Diary: Recap Episode #2 -- Skills, Arts and Characters

Postby Winterbrass » Sat Jan 16, 2010 10:34 pm

My main suggestion for a replacement of the skill system is to still have 'skills', but to have them as self-improving qualities of the character rather than manually-improved abilities. What this means in relation to the current system is that doing something reinvests the "LP" into the skill that was used, rather than the current system which gives LP which can be spent anywhere, regardless of the method of obtaining them.

Farm a lot? Your farming skill will improve. Smith? Smithing will improve.

If you additionally altered the QL system, you could set QL 50 as an 'average' item and have skill levels assigned to items for which players could craft the item at average quality. (Say, 25 Cooking for a QL 50 loaf of bread, or 150 Smithing for a QL 50 Plate breastplate.)

This would mean that players would be able to do anything from the very beginning - anything from baking Rings of Brodgar to creating fires - but if their skill was so low that the effective quality of the item was zero or negative (due to insufficient skill), the item simply wouldn't be produced and could potentially with a catastrophic failure.
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Re: Dev Diary: Recap Episode #2 -- Skills, Arts and Characters

Postby Jackard » Sat Jan 16, 2010 10:42 pm

loftar wrote:In relation to the revamp of actions, we have considered some revamps of the crafting system, though much is yet unclear about it. The high-level, abstract idea is that it would be fun to be able to learn "master recipes" every once in a while. One such master recipe might be "bread". Such a master recipe would take generic inputs such as "flour" (assuming there are different kinds of flour, such as wheat flour or barley flour), "liquid" (it may be possible to choose between water or milk, for instance) and "flavors" (where one may be able to put in stuff like butter, poppy seeds, honey, and what not). Generally, each combination should yield, not a bread, but a specific recipe for that kind of bread, where the product would have different qualities depending on the inputs. It should probably be a rather involved process, somehow, to create new specific recipes. It should probably be possible to name the specific recipes, so that I can call the bread I've invented "Loftar's Lembas" for real this time, and then teach that recipe to others under that name (and also have it reflected in the tooltip of the product). Certain very specific inputs may yield not new parameterized bread recipes, but specific recipes that we've pre-seeded, so that wheat flour, water, butter and apples would result in the recipe for apple pie. That would make the game more rich in exploration and experimentation. The specifics of this scheme are yet unclear, but I think it should be possible to bring it to concretes, and I think it would be very cool indeed.

If you arent familiar with Guild Wars, it allows players to collect a variety of skills but only have the use of eight at any one time - players experiment and assemble skill 'builds' to overcome problems which they can then name and share with other players. I hope your crafting is flexible and evolving in the same way, rather than concrete and static with predefined recipes, so that there might be more than one way to make an apple pie.
Last edited by Jackard on Sat Jan 16, 2010 10:55 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: Dev Diary: Recap Episode #2 -- Skills, Arts and Characters

Postby Jfloyd » Sat Jan 16, 2010 10:42 pm

Winterbrass wrote:My main suggestion for a replacement of the skill system is to still have 'skills', but to have them as self-improving qualities of the character rather than manually-improved abilities. What this means in relation to the current system is that doing something reinvests the "LP" into the skill that was used, rather than the current system which gives LP which can be spent anywhere, regardless of the method of obtaining them.

Farm a lot? Your farming skill will improve. Smith? Smithing will improve.

If you additionally altered the QL system, you could set QL 50 as an 'average' item and have skill levels assigned to items for which players could craft the item at average quality. (Say, 25 Cooking for a QL 50 loaf of bread, or 150 Smithing for a QL 50 Plate breastplate.)

This would mean that players would be able to do anything from the very beginning - anything from baking Rings of Brodgar to creating fires - but if their skill was so low that the effective quality of the item was zero or negative (due to insufficient skill), the item simply wouldn't be produced and could potentially with a catastrophic failure.


Go back to Runescape
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Re: Dev Diary: Recap Episode #2 -- Skills, Arts and Characters

Postby Winterbrass » Sat Jan 16, 2010 10:48 pm

Jfloyd wrote:Go back to Runescape

The standard method of insulting me in that manner would be "GB2Runescape", if I'm not mistaken. However, I've never played it. The concept of a skill improving itself through use is hardly limited to one particular computer game, thank you very much.
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Re: Dev Diary: Recap Episode #2 -- Skills, Arts and Characters

Postby Potjeh » Sat Jan 16, 2010 10:55 pm

If I understood him correctly he's proposing something more like Dungeon Crawl than Runescape system. Dungeon Crawl has a cool experience system. Basically, you get XP for and then you choose which skills to focus on, and then the XP is transferred from the XP pool into those skills as you use the skills. Additionally, skills are also ever so slightly raised by use even if you don't select them as focuses.

Anyway, it could work in H&H with some alterations. Namely, a scale that lets you decide how fast you want the LP to be transferred from the pool. When you select a slower speed you get a small discount, but you have to do more crafting in that area. If you just want to raise the skill and not do much crafting, you select the fast method and transfer all the LP in just one crafting, but you don't get any discounts.

But really, there's not much point in the discussion until we get more concrete plans to comment on. I must say I'm a bit wary of the weariness thing, though. Diversity is nice, but not if it's forced.
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Re: Dev Diary: Recap Episode #2 -- Skills, Arts and Characters

Postby Winterbrass » Sat Jan 16, 2010 11:06 pm

According to Wikipedia, Runescape uses a system that sounds very similar to what I was thinking of, with the exception that the player would be presented with every crafting option instead of having to 'earn' them.

I really don't like crafting systems like World of Warcraft, where it's more of an afterthought than a system, or class-based crafting systems like Everquest 2.

Even having set 'recipes' is a bit of a negative, really. In keeping with the spirit of 'try it and find out' that H&H seems to have, and as the Dev post said, it would be more fun to just pick things to combine and see what happens, with the items themselves dictating how difficult the recipe was.
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Re: Dev Diary: Recap Episode #2 -- Skills, Arts and Characters

Postby loftar » Sun Jan 17, 2010 6:20 am

Potjeh wrote:I must say I'm a bit wary of the weariness thing, though. Diversity is nice, but not if it's forced.

Just to clarify, the purpose of work weariness is not to create diversity or specialization. Rather, its primary purpose is as a counterbalance to fun, like how the food system currently balances stamina, hunger and food (and thus, ultimately, FEPs) against each other. The fact that you have to match the elements with each other to actually level up is what makes the FEP system fun in my mind -- it isn't just mindless linear work like how you can dig up clay for hours to gain LP. Technically speaking, work weariness would not necessarily, in its role as an element in the LP replacement, have to be bad -- that's just an auxiliary role it has, just like stamina and hunger.

I'm still very much open to alternative systems as well, though. One that I have considered is that doing work of various kinds generates "thoughts" that have to be "contemplated" somehow in order to convert it to stats, but it seems that the "fun" system could become a lot more... well, fun. If anything, it might be meaningful if the balanced elements could have some kind of finer structure, so that there is a process of matching them beyond just keeping a linear metric around zero.

The distinction between the "Base attributes" and the "Skill values", in case anyone hadn't gotten that yet, is that the former are attributes of the character's physical prowess, while the latter represent mental abilities. It is for that reason that I'd like the levling of the skill values to be represented by some kind of psychological process, and more specifically a learning process.
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