Dev diary: Ritual, Skills, Wyrd

Announcements about major changes in Haven & Hearth.

Re: Dev Diary: Ritual, Skills, Wyrd

Postby keyn_thror » Wed May 26, 2010 2:16 pm

I personally really like the idea of Rituals, it's a great feature!
I like the game atmosphere, and Rituals will add even more, they are a good reason for players to socialize and exlore the world.
BTW, Rituals icons are simply awesome, Jorb, you rock! 8-)

I'd love to see Rituals implemented, but only as an addition to the current gameplay.
The LP training gameplay isn't very realistic, but it's playable and fun - getting some kind of "experience points", that you later use for your character advancement in the direction you like most at current time.
As some people already said here before - learning to murder people by shaking hands with friends and singing morning songs is less realistic, than current system. :)

It would be good to have Wyrd buffs, like Timber Song and other, that give some bonus to core gameplay, not replace it's vital parts like LP system.

There is a common rule of game design - first make core gameplay fun, and then make additional gameplay, that adds more fun, but requires more of player's actions and attention. Some playes may like it, some don't, but the game is still playable for all of them, because core gameplay is still fun.

I play H&H for about a month and see it's gameplay fun and interesting, with nice balance.
Just my opinion, of course, but as a professional MMO game designer, I like H&H project very much.
It's better than many top-grade MMO projects - and trust me - I've seen a LOT of them.

-----

Concerning Fast Travel...

As a player, I like Fast Travel feature, because it saves me a lot of time when I go to explore the world.
Especially in situations, when I am lost during travels and cannot find my way home.

Fast Travel isn't overpowered, it has a limit - Travel Weariness, that restricts you from travelling all over the world in no time, and restricts the distance you may travel by one jump.
Even if you want to teleport somewhere, you are limited to Village Totems and Crossroads (which are not an easy thing to get and mantain).

You still cannot bring more than two chests of goods with you, which is really not much for a cross-village trading.
If you want to weaken "teleport trading" - restrict players from teleporting with a boat in hands, only with normal containers - that would lower the trading volumes by half approximately, and would force people to use other ways of transportation.

Fast Travel is a base for several other interesting gameplays, like wine, beer and tobacco production.
If Fast Travel is removed - they have to be changed as well.
Perhaps, if Wine and Beer get some nice FEP points, this is not a problem.

As a game designer, I understand your concern about Fast Travel being a very common way of travelling, it ruins roleplay atmosphere and allows people to scatter around the world, thus lowering their need for socialization and interaction.
But good natural resources are widely scattered too, so it usually requires a lot of time to get from one village to another.
Common ways of travelling are mostly boring, swimming the same route for half an hour a 100th time is simply not fun for most players.

Introducing wagons and rafts really made Fast Travel trading a less effective way of trading, but wagons are high-level gameplay, because they require cow taming, which is not an easy task for a moderately experienced player, especially if his region doesn't have plains that spawn buffalos. This is a reason why many players still prefer teleportation over wagons for trading.

I'd suggest to add some medium-level trading alternatives, like cargo boats for example.
Main trade routes are still tied to water, as it was in real medieval world, so boats are preferred over land vehicles - they are much faster and safer, comparing to the carts, for example.
Make cargo boats slower than regular ones, they should require more resources to build, including medium-level technologies, like ropes, leather or cloth.
In exchange cargo boats might have two more slots for containers, or a "big cargo hold", like a wagon.

-----

Concerning macros...

It's a common problem for most MMORPGs, and there is no absolute solution to it, really.
EVERY player action can be scripted and automated, there are lots of ways to do that without game software modifications, so tracking them is a real problem.
Even EVE Online, the most macro-protected MMO I've seen yet, has bots, that are effective and are very hard to trace.

Of course there are ways to monitor repeating actions, account uptimes, actions time intervals and such things, but it increases server load, and still doesn't help much, if a player adds some randomization to his macros.

H&H isn't a commercial project (yet, I hope it will get a good financial support in future to keep it running), more than that - it's an alpha version, so there are no reasons to be worried about some macroers influencing game world economics and balance, their influence is minimal, comparing to a common gameplay H&H provides.

Whatever macro you make - you still have to get food, eat, get resources, restore stamina and many other actions, that are much easier and fun to do manually, than automate them. The core gameplay itself creates conditions, where macroing is ineffective.

Anyway, the best solution to "macro training" problem - find reasons why people use macros - probably these are most boring parts of your game.
Make this gameplay interesting - and most people will stop using macros.
Make training through some other gameplay more effective - people will stop using old macros at all.
Victory needs no explanation. Defeat allows none.
Победа не требует оправдания. Поражение не имеет его.
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Re: Dev Diary: Ritual, Skills, Wyrd

Postby burgingham » Wed May 26, 2010 4:17 pm

keyn_thror wrote:Concerning Fast Travel...

As a player, I like Fast Travel feature, because it saves me a lot of time when I go to explore the world.
Especially in situations, when I am lost during travels and cannot find my way home.

Fast Travel isn't overpowered, it has a limit - Travel Weariness, that restricts you from travelling all over the world in no time, and restricts the distance you may travel by one jump.
Even if you want to teleport somewhere, you are limited to Village Totems and Crossroads (which are not an easy thing to get and mantain).
Fast Travel is a base for several other interesting gameplays, like wine, beer and tobacco production.
If Fast Travel is removed - they have to be changed as well.


This! Jorb and Loftar read this carefully, there is much truth in it. I really would hate to see Fast Travel gone completely. Fast Travel is also the only meaningful use of Agility so far.
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Re: Dev Diary: Ritual, Skills, Wyrd

Postby Shoop » Wed May 26, 2010 11:15 pm

keyn_thror wrote:
Whatever macro you make - you still have to get food, eat, get resources, restore stamina and many other actions, that are much easier and fun to do manually, than automate them. The core gameplay itself creates conditions, where macroing is ineffective.

Anyway, the best solution to "macro training" problem - find reasons why people use macros - probably these are most boring parts of your game.
Make this gameplay interesting - and most people will stop using macros.
Make training through some other gameplay more effective - people will stop using old macros at all.

I've explained this to a friend, the whole 'bots skip the boring bits', but it's not really something that can be understood second-hand.
One other reason bots are used are for those who really do just want something for less effort. Whether it be experience, cash, or game items; bot's can help.
One of the best ways to counter these bots are to make them in-game. Instead of Rclick>apple, Rclick>apple, Rclick>apple, what about some sort apple X? A quick number pad interaction and you grab all the apples you need.

But this isn't really the place to continue this discussion...
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Re: Dev Diary: Ritual, Skills, Wyrd

Postby ThirdEmperor » Fri May 28, 2010 4:49 am

Jackard wrote:
FantasticFox wrote:If it 'aint broken, don't fix it. I've never even seen a macroer. The Wyrd system does introduce a particular level of roleplay, but why not just add these features with LP as the currency instead? It's a system which has a very straightforward, short learning curve. Wyrd is difficult to get your head around. LP should stay, in my honest opinion.

LP could remain for learning skills, wyrd for rituals/buffs, and skill values either removed or their only progression being the bonuses* provided by equipment/beliefs/buff


This.
LP kicks balrog arse (does jorbs procile pic make anyone else think of gandalf?), wyrd is also pretty cool, but learning to swing a sword by catching ladybugs us dumb. Period.If skill values are removed macroing will drop majorly, as the only advantage a macroer would get is learning to chop down trees faster.
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Re: Dev Diary: Ritual, Skills, Wyrd

Postby brohammed » Thu Jun 24, 2010 3:38 am

I haven't been playing long, but I have been playing intensely, and I very much like LP. Without it you'd be an exceptional lumberjack/carpenter early game, and find it very difficult to progress beyond that.

Universal points are good.
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Re: Dev Diary: Ritual, Skills, Wyrd

Postby Zamte » Thu Jun 24, 2010 3:53 am

I still suggest a system which uses LP until a specific cap (likely 100 or 200) to a skill value, at which point you begin to build up a stockpile of points as well that are specific to the skill value, which can be spent for various things. They would be used like LP when it comes to the skill value being raised more, however they could also be used for special functions. Perhaps consuming 10,000 smithing points for a 1 hour 10% boost to your smithing value, or the ability to pay for an innate quality boost to the next item crafted. This would give crafters a reason to want to stockpile points and use them selectively for their best items, and with their best materials. Perhaps other skills, such as farming which don't really craft could be given boosts which allow them better gains to crop, cow, and tree qualities for the randomization elements.

My biggest issue with Wyrd is plain and simply that, it's no more related to the skills themselves than LP is. It doesn't make any more sense to learn to be a smith from knocking on doors and watching sunsets than it does to learn it by hacking down every tree in sight, or setting out to be the world's best wheat wholesaler. Not to mention hugs, tea, sunsets, and knocking on doors doesn't seem very viking-like.
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Re: Dev Diary: Ritual, Skills, Wyrd

Postby keyn_thror » Fri Jun 25, 2010 5:19 am

Zamte wrote: Not to mention hugs, tea, sunsets, and knocking on doors doesn't seem very viking-like.

http://www.havenandhearth.com/portal/about
Haven & Hearth is a MMORPG (Massive Multiplayer Online Roleplaying Game) set in a fictional world loosely inspired by Slavic and Germanic myth and legend.
Victory needs no explanation. Defeat allows none.
Победа не требует оправдания. Поражение не имеет его.
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Re: Dev Diary: Ritual, Skills, Wyrd

Postby Jeebus » Fri Jun 25, 2010 5:27 am

I like my LP's, I like my fast travel, I like not having to shake hands with FILTHY humans...

If wyrd strips away these things, I may have to explode in sadness.
"Never trust anyone offering to 'do you a solid.' They may just want to take a dump on your table." - Me

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Re: Dev Diary: Ritual, Skills, Wyrd

Postby McPirate » Fri Jun 25, 2010 6:16 am

keyn_thror wrote:I'd love to see Rituals implemented, but only as an addition to the current gameplay.
The LP training gameplay isn't very realistic, but it's playable and fun - getting some kind of "experience points", that you later use for your character advancement in the direction you like most at current time.
As some people already said here before - learning to murder people by shaking hands with friends and singing morning songs is less realistic, than current system. :)

It would be good to have Wyrd buffs, like Timber Song and other, that give some bonus to core gameplay, not replace it's vital parts like LP system.


This.
I like LP. (or as I call it "LE" or "Life Experience") It one of the simplest and most enjoyable forms of character advancement I have encountered.
Rituals could be a great addition to the game, but I would hate to see wyrd replace LP.

Also - Just like many others... I must say those icons rock!
Image
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Re: Dev Diary: Ritual, Skills, Wyrd

Postby REWB » Fri Jun 25, 2010 10:57 am

Jeebus wrote:I like my LP's, I like my fast travel, I like not having to shake hands with FILTHY humans...

If wyrd strips away these things, I may have to explode in sadness.



Ahhhhh....we are extra filthy today jeebus....just for you bud!!! But when will you have the agility to travel that far?

The best skill & ritual that could be added would be a, "hall of the honored and dead hero's"!!! But please don't add anything new right now guy's, as much as I like this game there's just to much f'ed up stuff to make it any worse! :D

"The more they overthink the plumbing, the easier it is to stop up the drain." -Scotty. Star Trek 3
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