Hedgehogs kingdom is so safe!

[MagicManICT]

Achieving a good result with less options is kinda more efficient than using an elaborate scheme with a lot of details. Sure, it's not art, but if it gets the job done better - then it's the way to go about it. Exquisite fencing and clever tricks are pretty and interesting in a sparring match. If they chose the efficient sureproof way over artistic but with the slightest possibility of a hiccup - that kinda makes those guys, well, good at combat.

Then explain to me why trading card games are so popular? There is efficiency in any one given deck, but there are a wide variety of decks to contend with in the meta for the better game, and you have to plan and anticipate what you're opponent will be using at a competitive level, not just everyone run around with the same deck, or nearly the same, all the time.

[Hasta]

Then explain to me why trading card games are so popular? There is efficiency in any one given deck, but there are a wide variety of decks to contend with in the meta for the better game, and you have to plan and anticipate what you're opponent will be using at a competitive level, not just everyone run around with the same deck, or nearly the same, all the time.

fair point, except you missed a word there. GOOD TCGs are popular. DECENT TCGs are popular. Because even mediocre TCGs with low popularity have at least some sort of thought-through balance. Every deck has its pros and cons, choosing one is like "rock-paper-scissors-lizard-Spock". Then, every match has "forks" like "If he's doing A then I should do B, if he's doing C then I should do D, then it will be X or Y..." etc etc. You have to anticipate and think and basically lay out a few scenarios in your head after your opponent's every move.

Continuing the analogy, this game's pvp would be the shittiest, crappiest, positively satan-anus-spawn-level TCG with balance imagined by an autistic demented amoeba during an acid overdose trip. Choosing your deck is basically a choice between "rock" and "much smaller rock made of diarrhea", and in a real pvp battle the only "fork" you come across is if you managed to smash your rock on your opponents' head first due to him being clumsy or you're dead. (those who chose diarrhea rock don't have forks, they just die).

In my experience with, for example, M:tG, which I've played for a while back in 90s (after the 6th edition but before the artwork went to shit) there was ALWAYS a deck that was palpably better than the others. Therefore, next edition would implement counters to that deck, but at the same time made another one overpowered just enough to become "that one that everyone would like to run around with". And again and again (greedy bastards just wanted us to buy all the booster packs!)

That's another difference of TCGs: you may KNOW a deck that would be OP, having all the cards for it is a completely different thing. Here almost everyone who's anyone have all the necessary moves, the number of options is ridiculous, and there are little to none counters.

Imagine if we had hidden from the opponents "trigger" moves that would allow you to anticipate your foe's next action? "Barrel Roll, duration 5s: next Cleave completely misses you but refunds 4 IPs to the attacker, you lose up to 4 IPs and gain +10% move speed for 2 seconds". "Wrist Twist, duration 3s: next time your Cleave is avoided with Barrel Roll you put a +50% red opening on your opponent and lose 4 IPs; your opponent gains 2 IPs and his move speed is reduced by 15% for 2s". And so on and so on, the possibilities of creating counters and then counters for counters are endless.

THAT would be a TCG-style PvP. THAT would allow for finesse and combat prowess to be actually a thing. But a man can dream... yes, a man can dream.

[MagicManICT]

Well, I did ask for that, I guess. +1 post! i'm not sure it'd be that bad if there was enough options, but as it is, PvP, from what I've seen, is literally just an Adventure Quest type system where it's "Attack" JRPGs almost have more depth. Sure, there's a little skill involved, like when to run, when to chase, and when you should (or shouldn't) use one of your 5 or 6 skills.

Because even mediocre TCGs with low popularity have at least some sort of thought-through balance.

As a guy that has been playing card games of various sorts since the 80s (and I don't mean Bridge, Poker, Pinochle, or Pitch; I mean Illuminati and other odd ball card games), and TCGs specifically since Magic, I've played many dozen, if not 100+ different ones... and no, mediocre TCGs generally have a piss-poor balance no matter how "thought through" it might be. And I'll note that I played a few of these at a high competitive level, Magic at the level of "professional." I don't think I bought a card one after 4th ed because I won it all at tournaments (or as payment for judging tournaments I didn't play in).

That's another difference of TCGs: you may KNOW a deck that would be OP, having all the cards for it is a completely different thing. Here almost everyone who's anyone have all the necessary moves, the number of options is ridiculous, and there are little to none counters.

Incorrect here. Anyone that plays TCGs/CCGs competitively will have the cards they want, either through trading, direct purchase, or "crafting" as goes on in the modern computer based ones. New, cheap, and/or casual players will, however, fit your statement very well. Which relates to typical PvPers in Haven... the hard-core PvPers will have all the moves/cards they want, more casual players will have most, and those that don't want to get involved will have little or none.

i'm not going to say it's a great analogy, but it is jorb's analogy if I recall the discussion on the current combat system correctly.

And I have to agree with you:

Imagine if we had hidden from the opponents "trigger" moves that would allow you to anticipate your foe's next action? "Barrel Roll, duration 5s: next Cleave completely misses you but refunds 4 IPs to the attacker, you lose up to 4 IPs and gain +10% move speed for 2 seconds". "Wrist Twist, duration 3s: next time your Cleave is avoided with Barrel Roll you put a +50% red opening on your opponent and lose 4 IPs; your opponent gains 2 IPs and his move speed is reduced by 15% for 2s". And so on and so on, the possibilities of creating counters and then counters for counters are endless.

[Jackwolf]

And I have to agree with you:

Imagine if we had hidden from the opponents "trigger" moves that would allow you to anticipate your foe's next action? "Barrel Roll, duration 5s: next Cleave completely misses you but refunds 4 IPs to the attacker, you lose up to 4 IPs and gain +10% move speed for 2 seconds". "Wrist Twist, duration 3s: next time your Cleave is avoided with Barrel Roll you put a +50% red opening on your opponent and lose 4 IPs; your opponent gains 2 IPs and his move speed is reduced by 15% for 2s". And so on and so on, the possibilities of creating counters and then counters for counters are endless.

As a super casual fighter (mostly just a lot of hunting) this idea sounds pretty dope.

[OIchi]

It's funny how much this topic went off-track. Never expected to find discussion about combat here, but it is pretty interesting.
So sumarizing most of you agree on combat being bad.
No1 reason seem to be gap in numbers and impact of their comparation, leaving too little room for skill.
The second thing is lack of diversity too little combat moves/bad balance.