A Question of Morality, and Custom Clients

[jonamaster]

I also hardly think it's fair for the community to punish players for clicking the "Play" button on this website.

This. I think that if default client is a problem, then devs should change the default download and let new players choose for a custom client.

[WarpedWiseMan]

It takes about 14 seconds to setup Ender's to work. If taking less time to have a better experience is a punishment in your mind, you will really not enjoy this game.

[Weekly_Epic_Fail]

It's not always 14 seconds. Things can go wrong like the person downloading the wrong bit client. That can extend installation to minutes. Regardless the time spent is worth it though.

[Jackard]

hide behind a tree and then jump out and murder your friend for great justice

I wish that was possible, really. I feel this is a huge aspect of the game that's been completely ruined by custom clients. You cannot ambush or sneak around because everyone can see you a mile away. That was one of the game's few interactive points that didn't revolve around quality and grinding - it was something that could involve actual gameplay.

You are four years too late to this game, son. Stealth was fantastic back in world one/two, before xray ruined it.

Here's some fun reading from two years back: viewtopic.php?p=215423#p215423

[Scubas]

It takes about 14 seconds to setup Ender's to work. If taking less time to have a better experience is a punishment in your mind, you will really not enjoy this game.

"Better experience" is subjective.

I think he made a good point. If the default client is so terrible and shitty, and unplayable - then why not upon clicking play, provide install instructions for ender instead of downloading autohaven? or at least mention the fact that it exists.

I also don't feel that being able to see behind things is essential to gameplay. Of course it's more convenient, but there is no way to render that in a 2D game, unless there were to be speech bubble-type prompts appearing to let you know there are things behind the rock/tree/etc. The world is flat, your perspective is limited, that's the way it is. That's why when you walk behind something, the yellow outlines appear, indicating there is something behind the rock. This is a feature in the default client. Being able to x-ray things is not ''essential''.

Though, during the inital argument I brought up the fact that IRL, trees don't disturb my vision of the ground itself. There's just not many ways to effectively make this problem different in a 2D video game. It all comes down to preference and I realize that. However I can't say I feel the whole ''the entire community is doing it, so it isn't cheating'' is warranted. New players that know nothing about Ender's are indeed at a serious disadvantage from the start. I played a game ages ago that had very poor moderation and shitty developers, and there was an issue with people using a 3rd party speeding program to essentially cheat in the game and make it where you could attack and kill something almost instantly. It became extremely widespread and almost everyone was doing it, just because they knew there would be little to no consequences seeing as how the developers never did anything about it, and because it gave them an edge over the normal player that didn't want to cheat. This could be the way Ender makes some hnh players feel. For instance-

Danno played this same game with me, and a quote from him while talking about it(paraphrased probably quite badly, because my memory is terrible today due to a migraine):

1 speeder vs 10 normal players: "Omg someone's cheating"
4 speeders vs 7 normal players: "Wow you guys are pathetic, can't you just enjoy the game for what it is? -leaves to another area due to being impossible to play-"
10 speeders vs 1 normal player: "Well where can I get the program I need to play the game"

This whole mentality of "well everyone else is doing it'' doesn't defact from the original problem, however the scenario in this other game was much more of a problem than just being able to see behind shit. There are a lot of things about Haven and Hearth that are inconvinient, but if they were taken out of the game as easily as the lighting effects were/are, it wouldn't seem like the same game as before.

[burgingham]

I am not sure why you are still argueing about this when one of the devs already stated it is all good and they would have the same features in their client. There simply is (was?) not enough time to work on it so the playerbase had to take over this job.

End of discussion...

[WarpedWiseMan]

There are instructions very easily found and followed step by step. I think 99% of the player base would rather jorbtar focus on updates and bug fixes rather than create a better default UI.

[olgeigracexD]

Without open source client haven would be dead for a long time. Deal with it.

About light, darkness overlay is only a cosmetic effect. People would hack it anyway, even without source code.
But there's still something Loftar can do on the server side to fix day/night mechanics.

Highlighted area on ender's minimap is an area within server is sending you info about surrounding structures, plants, other players etc.
Make its size depend on day/night cycle, moon phase and source of light equiped, make it extra small in dark caves and problem solved.
Everyone would carry a torch, eat cavebulbs and pray for light just to see more curios or to not be surprised by bear/griefers/whatever.

[Jackard]

I think 99% of the player base would rather jorbtar focus on updates and bug fixes rather than create a better default UI.

comparing Enders to some private clients shows thats a really stupid thing to say

[Danno]

Using a custom client or not is for sure not a question of Morality. It's a question of Morality how you use a given Tool.

In H&H, "custom client" is pretty much synonymous with "full screen" and "no more obscured vision". You're cheapening gameplay for default client users whether you're thinking about it or not, even down to simply having more hotkeys to work with. If you sling some newb to death from an impossible distance in a cave, you probably wouldn't even think that they couldn't possibly foresee your attack or be able to aim back since the custom features are taken as a given. I mean, everyone here already has the mindset of how the custom client is not greatly helpful, but how the default client is a piece of shit hindrance that's a chore to use. Walking through a forest without x-ray is seen simply as stupidity - nobody would ever think that using x-ray could be putting other players at a fatal disadvantage.

And I'm supposed to do the same or else I'm a moronic newb who's doomed to forever be inadequate to the players using superior clients?

Yes. That's just how it is. Seatribe will not do anything about custom clients.

I really miss hiding behind objects, and the lighting was rather pretty when it wasn't causing eyestrain from the tiny radius and three levels of luminosity. The cavebulb thing is just another example of a halfbaked mechanic - they wouldn't need to be so rare if lighting worked properly.

Well, it's a shame. I might get Ender's again eventually solely for full screen since that is one thing that should definitely be a default feature. Maybe also lighting since the effort of manual lighting isn't worth it when everyone's reduced its value to nothing. I'll continue to be a moronic newb in other aspects, though.

You are four years too late to this game, son. Stealth was fantastic back in world one/two, before xray ruined it.

Here's some fun reading from two years back: viewtopic.php?p=215423#p215423

I do wish the community and devs would be more interested in reviving/preserving the game's best points. I suppose it only takes a handful of people to ruin it for everyone, though, and nobody would want to sacrifice their own personal safety for the greater good of the game.

It takes about 14 seconds to setup Ender's to work. If taking less time to have a better experience is a punishment in your mind, you will really not enjoy this game.

The people who use custom clients are the ones who don't enjoy this game - that's why they modified it to make it easier. A custom client is nothing exclusive and it's no big secret, but its negative impacts on the game remain. It's also not something a new player thinks to search for immediately. I'm cool with playing it as is and I'm not whining about not being able to see some taproot behind a tree. Your idea of a "better experience" is only to acquire things more efficiently and achieve a higher score sooner. My idea of a "better experience" is interactive and engaging gameplay with unique challenges and stories to tell. I'd rather kill a bear unarmed in a group in 5 minutes with risk of death than alone with a sling in 1 minute any day. It actually means something.
H&H is an interesting game. I've played it on and off for years and I enjoyed it everytime. I think this is one of its major faults, though, that contributes to making me only an "on and off" player.

I am not sure why you are still argueing about this when one of the devs already stated it is all good and they would have the same features in their client. There simply is (was?) not enough time to work on it so the playerbase had to take over this job.

End of discussion...

It'd be less of an issue if everyone had the same opportunities/features by default. Then nobody would be unfairly disadvantaged. They should have the "Play" button redirect to the Ender's download. I simply can't agree with ruining stealth and making game mechanics serve no purpose whatsoever, though. For anyone arguing the realism of seeing the obscured side of a tree that should be in your vision, you must then consider that you shouldn't be able to see the side of the tree opposite to where you stand.

Anyhow, I believe this thread was just about the community's opinion on the matter. You can't dismiss the purpose of the thread since opinions will live on even after something is set in stone.

Highlighted area on ender's minimap is an area within server is sending you info about surrounding structures, plants, other players etc.
Make its size depend on day/night cycle, moon phase and source of light equiped, make it extra small in dark caves and problem solved.
Everyone would carry a torch, eat cavebulbs and pray for light just to see more curios or to not be surprised by bear/griefers/whatever.

Something like that would probably be good other than players being visible at all with x-ray.