Goodbye, and good riddance

[Vetarnian]

The server is up

There are 46 hearthlings playing.

Indeed, what an immense success. That's almost four dozen.

[Chakravanti]

Considering it's not even a complete game. Yeah that's crazy.

[Vetarnian]

Considering it's not even a complete game. Yeah that's crazy.

Wasn't there a thread recently to the effect that there were now 4,000 members? Where are they, then, if less than 100 can be found on the server at any given time? In my time playing this game, I have never seen hearthling numbers in the three figures, and even on this forum, the maximum was "92 on Mon Sep 07, 2009 8:02 pm".

[Kasakun]

Look, what I'm trying to say is that everyone knows this. It's tough, it sucks, and the "o we knaow teh game we are its rulers yay us" crowd are a nuisance, possibly even to themselves due to internal bickering that follows, well, general asshattery. But you either enjoy the good bits of the game and ignore/downplay/paranoidly guard the hell out of/revenge-kill/facepalm/don't give a crap about the rest. Or, well, you quit. It's your choice, boyo.

[Caliku]

I've been playing for 4 days.

Every person I've run in to has been kind as hell, and the most recent person I met I actually had the chance to help out!(Enjoy that boat and fishing gear mystery man!)


You obviously can't handle a true sandbox game. There are going to be grievers. Get to grinding, throw up a brick wall, QQ MOAR.

[Chakravanti]

Considering it's not even a complete game. Yeah that's crazy.

Wasn't there a thread recently to the effect that there were now 4,000 members? Where are they, then, if less than 100 can be found on the server at any given time? In my time playing this game, I have never seen hearthling numbers in the three figures, and even on this forum, the maximum was "92 on Mon Sep 07, 2009 8:02 pm".

Who gives a fuck where they are? Half of them are nubs who ragequit like you. 1/4 are JTG's alts and the rest are active players and their alts. Really, no one cares that this game isn't as popular as runescape. It's not finished and it is seeing a regular influx of players despite a complete lack of official advertising (e.g %100 WoM advertizing). Seriously. No body gives a fuck you are REAGQUITTING over your own stupid mistakes.

[Russaria]

I do agree with prety much every point you made, it is a very "disheveled" game in that there is so much to cover I imagine the devs suffer from a form of "which of the 1000 mechanics do we tackle this week". However I am sticking it out. I do agree with the suggestioin that many of your problems do indeed stem from having stayed too close to the main grid. Yes the X animals are irritating and cause grief while you are trying to build, but if you and your group had packed up and moved at the very least a couple grids out to nowhere...you would have been better off. I mean you pick a direction and GO, until you actually believe your arm will fall off...until you havent seen a single sign that anyone has been "this way" in ages. Then settle and you could have been a lot better off. MAny people "think" they've went far out, when actually they havent went 1/10th of the distance they think they have. This does cause a problem in that is causes you to be so far away from town that you'd need uber agility to go back and forth to trade. BUt such is give and take situations.

I agree 100% about the elitist mine system as well, it does not work at all and causes a great many of this game's troubles. (and yes my group has a mine, we have 3 of them actually) so it's not sour grapes, its just the truth. The cave system is retarded, mines 30 RL minutes in the dark and most prospects in caves are actually reading a mine a grid away in another cave...the whole thing is a huge epic FAIL where fun is concerned. They should have kept the old system and tightened up it requirments instead of this whole failed cave mine prospecting bull.

I likewise agree that the devs can sometimes seem a little silly as they go about introducing "rearanging deck chairs while the ship is sinking" stuff instead of going back and fixing crap (Said cave system for instance) that is so fun killing.

You seem a very apt gamer and it is a shame you cannot stick around, I still think if you just chose a direction and walked/sailed for a good 2-3 real life hours you could find a nice patch of grassland at the edge of the world and be very happy and would run into a lot less (IF ANY) of those kind of 12 year olds OR those with that 12 year old griefer mentality that you mention.

The community does need more serious gamers like yourself, it is a shame you must leave. Maybe give it one more try 3 grids out?

[Vetarnian]

Considering it's not even a complete game. Yeah that's crazy.

Wasn't there a thread recently to the effect that there were now 4,000 members? Where are they, then, if less than 100 can be found on the server at any given time? In my time playing this game, I have never seen hearthling numbers in the three figures, and even on this forum, the maximum was "92 on Mon Sep 07, 2009 8:02 pm".

Who gives a fuck where they are? Half of them are nubs who ragequit like you. 1/4 are JTG's alts and the rest are active players and their alts. Really, no one cares that this game isn't as popular as runescape. It's not finished and it is seeing a regular influx of players despite a complete lack of official advertising (e.g %100 WoM advertizing). Seriously. No body gives a fuck you are REAGQUITTING over your own stupid mistakes.

If you've devolved into abuse, then: Spoken like a true Goon. Maybe, just maybe, this post will make people realize that for all your seemingly standing up for the game, you're just being as selfish a prick as any I've seen come from that website you so proudly represent. "Yeah, let's drive the pubbies away! It's their fault! Game's dead? Not my fault."

"Who gives a fuck where they are?" you ask? Well, you know, maybe, just maybe, Jorb and Loftar do. Maybe they don't want their game to be dead on arrival. And maybe they'll finally realize that they need to curb this rampant griefing for which Goons have become infamous, even though they're by no means the only ones to resort to it.

As I said, I can see nothing good emerge from this game as long as this is allowed to continue.

[jorb]

Thank you for taking the time to write that, I think you make several valid points. I will try to address your complaints.

1) Lack of metal
Problem: Several important steps in the economical development of a settlement require metal. Notably Chests, Meatgrinders, Pick Axes, Cellars. Apart from cutting off certain necessities, the lack of metal also prevents the new player from at all acquiring some of the more interesting gear. Scythes, metal cauldron, metal saw, etc.

Analysis: The "trickle-down" effect of most real economies is somewhat lacklustre, as new players, unlike humans in a real society, are not immediately a part of a broader social context from which trickle-down can happen. Getting into such a context is fairly simple (Get on IRC), but this is an operation that requires several extra steps beyond firing up the client and having a fun time. Despite the implementation of vending stalls, trades still have a hard time "connecting", as one of the more interesting and, probably, common trade scenarios -- that of a newb buying metal in exchange for simple farm produce in bulk -- cannot be carried out via the vending stall interface, as it depends on coinage. Many MMOs (notably WoW) handle the issue of trade connectivity via global auction houses, something that we have been, and are, reluctant to implement. Another factor contributing to the problems of the metal market is the general lack of ersatz. While we have taken steps to reduce the critical importance of metal, there are still stumbling blocks that are hard to get around.

Solution: Increase trade connectivity. Implement bog ore -- small amounts of iron ore can be hoisted out of bogs. Consider panning for gold and silver. (In all cases, gain should be significantly lower than from mines). The great advantage of these latter steps are that -- even if they were to require a significant amount of work -- it would make it at least possible to solo play the game, something that I myself could appreciate. Another advantage is that industries like that also make it possible for us to increase reliance on metal in crafting recipes.

2) Griefing
Problem: Even if the new player does manage to get himself somewhat established, he stands to lose significant parts of his investment in time and effort to "griefing" (defined as the act of spoiling another player's game experience without other personal gain than sheer shadenfreude).

Analysis: The distinction between griefing and some other, more legitimate, form of PvP is probably somewhat illusory. For the offended player, the motives of the offending player should scarcely matter beyond, perhaps, the discomfort experienced by the offended player upon realizing that he has been insulted as well as injured. In approaching the problem we should, instead, consider it a general implementational problem pertaining to PvP in general, rather than to specific forms of it. However, we can also identify that the type of PvP encounter that is almost always referred to as "griefing" is that of Player versus Settlement (Or PvS), the type of encounter where the attacking player exploits the absence of the defending player by initiating the encounter at a time when the defending player is, quite simply, logged out. These encounters can be opportune as well as planned ("I happen to stumble upon an unguarded settlement", versus, "I chose a time when I know that Bill will not be logged in). Having thus delimited the problem, it appears before us in much starker contrast than previously. The Settlement in this encounter, which for all intents and purposes could be considered as an extension of the defending player himself -- there is, after all, little material difference between his corporeal form and the things in the game world to which he considers himself the rightful owner, much like in real life -- has no means of defending itself in the section of the time continuum defined by the intrusion into the settlement by the offending player, and his extraction from the same. What the settlement can provide is the potential of a retaliatory strike versus the original offender at a later point in time -- via the scent system -- but it must be stressed here that this is merely a potential that often times goes unrealized. After all, if the offending player has already shown his ability to penetrate the physical barriers of the settlement in order to harm the offended player, the offended player runs the further risk of exposing himself to further injury, should he attempt a retaliatory strike. Furthermore, the retaliatory strike is in itself by no means unproblematic. Scents must be collected and sorted. A forensic investigation of some complexity must be undertaken. A tracking effort must follow. The offending player's own settlement must be penetrated, etc., etc.

In short: In the timeframe defined by the intrusion into a settlement by the offending player, and his extraction from the settlement, the defending player has no means of causing the attacker any sort of harm. Any retaliatory harm the defending player can cause to the offending player has to be initiated by him at a later date, is difficult (Much more so than the original intrusion was, as it subsumes the whole complexity of tracking) and also highly risky (As it exposes the original defender to the risk of further retaliation).

Further analyzing the problem in the economic dimension of it, the amount of resources required to protect an area (Walls, claims) is vastly higher, scaling with the areal of the protected area, than the amount of resources required to penetrate a settlement (A few K grinded LP and BBBs, not scaled by anything).

Solution: Claims, per some mechanic, bite back. Please note that this does not attempt to solve the power-curve problems that the game, admittedly, also suffers from.

3) Community
Problem: People are mean.

Analysis: The player uttering a statment like that does speak a psychological truth. It might also be the case that the dynamics of H&H attracts a speficic strata of particularly mean people, but I'm not sure I agree with the general statement. My experience is that most players -- even from the groups professing an interest in PvP -- are generally sociable people who can to one extent or another be reasoned with. There is a fair amount of machismo floating about the forums, which can be lamented, but the players who do use harsh language from time to time -- I'm looking at you, Jackard -- often speak from a fair amount of experience with the game. I have no intention of trying to censor the debate on the forums.

Solution: Don't let them get to you. (Or, more in vein of the stated problem: Get over it ).

In addition to that, you bring up the general problems of starting location and power-curve failure. We are aware of both and are considering solutions.

[Fluffy]

As I said, I can see nothing good emerge from this game as long as this is allowed to continue.

I'm just going to throw this out here: Jorb n Loftar(one of the two.. or both, dunno) said that it was going to be almost completely unmoderated aside from bugs and stuff. Whatever you can do ingame goes.. whether it be stealing, killing, or general griefing. This is pretty much the same as the laissez-affair in the Gilded Age of America. Almost every business in America was fucked up. You had people in your canned soup most likely! Now, this being said, don't expect much to be done by Jorb n Loftar soon. Instead of asking them to make rules or moderate, make your own government against it. I mean, think of it this way.

Jorb and Loftar are gods who gave birth to the nation(Haven and Hearth) and us(Hearthlings). Now, they don't give a damn if we kill eachother and steal from eachother. Who does? Us, hearthlings. What do we do? Either a.) nothing, and take it... or b.) form some sort of a government against it, like in any normal nation.

See what I'm getting at here? Unless somebody gets off their lazy ass and starts some sort of a government against all of this, it's not going to change. But don't expect that soon, anybody who has the means to do this is probably going to abandon it with in a month, be killed due to the imbalance in power, or just be too much of a prick to. Like Jorb just said, best thing you can do is just ignore it. Find yourself a nice quiet place a grid or two, or even more out and just hope for the best.