Custom client impact on haven

[M_So]

I kind of wish they would disallow the use of them but there is no real way to regulate it so it would just put people at a disadvantage.

[mukumuku]

So instead of making farming scripts, lets just have a harvester which harvests 5x3 tiles in 1-2 sec

[preacherzero]

I was thinking about Salem the other day and I realised that there will prolly be no facility for custom clients etc.
Considering the game will be 3dish and we've seen footage of night, in a forest, which looked dense and cluttered (in a good way), sneaking up on people and use of torches/light sources will actually be viable... Being active at night may actually be pretty tense and dangerous.

In HnH with a custom client you can take measures to pretty much eliminate any potential for ambush or stealth with zoom and xray, nightvision etc, animal threats are reduced with the red circle markers.
It's actually pretty hard to die in HnH unless you deliberately don't use these features, but since everybody pretty much does use them, you're kinda at a disadvantage if you don't so you do.



If the default HnH client had zoom I'd be happy with just that tbh.

[DeadlyPencil]

Well the first custom clients was adding features that should have been present within a normal game from seeing things behind the sprite of an object to being able to see more than just a handful of tiles away via the small client window to multiple hotkey bars. It became more advanced, and added features such as visible grid, boar/bear red circle, and afterimage of scent direction. Some features such as automated scripts, seeing the enemy's IP, detecting objects on the minimap, and detecting people labeled as enemies (red) from a long distance may borderline cheating though your mileage may vary.

A ring of candle is a lovely sight with nightvision off.

are you sure about this?

[Potjeh]

The problem with the default client is that it sucks beyond belief.

Anyway, I believe that any game that has to use a badly designed interface to ramp up difficulty is a shitty game. Haven is difficult enough without migraine-inducing darkness (seriously, I used to get MASSIVE headaches from playing during night time from all the eye strain) or cheesy stealth.

[bmjclark]

Well the first custom clients was adding features that should have been present within a normal game from seeing things behind the sprite of an object to being able to see more than just a handful of tiles away via the small client window to multiple hotkey bars. It became more advanced, and added features such as visible grid, boar/bear red circle, and afterimage of scent direction. Some features such as automated scripts, seeing the enemy's IP, detecting objects on the minimap, and detecting people labeled as enemies (red) from a long distance may borderline cheating though your mileage may vary.

A ring of candle is a lovely sight with nightvision off.

are you sure about this?

IP=initiative points...so yes?

[Potjeh]

Is counting really good gameplay? Should we also be forced to write text by using the mouse pointer as a pen?

[burgingham]

are you sure about this?

Yes.

So instead of making farming scripts, lets just have a harvester which harvests 5x3 tiles in 1-2 sec

Farming will most likely get a complete overhaul because it is just tedious right now, no matter if you have to click single tiles or can select an area to do it. At least that is what Loftar said to me. I agree with you though. Such scripts always seemed way more legitimate to me than LP botting scripts. Those are features that should be in the UI anyway so I don't have a big problem using them.

I think nightvision, X-ray, hide objects and zoom are there to make the game easier. I can't think of one thing the custom clients can't do. You even have an option that shows your path when you click. You can't possibly say this was brought in because the devs mechanic is a bad one if the client has everything that could possibly make the game easier.

There are things in the custom clients I definitely dislike. Such as turning the nice game environment into a mass of red squares. There are much nicer work arounds than this. We had a custom client since w3 that makes all solid objects a little bit opaque. This way you keep the atmosphere of the game and still get all the advantages. What is bad about showing the players path btw other than it looking ugly in Enders?

In general we all (should) know that Loftar doesn't like it to work on the GUI so he is fine with others doing the work for him. It is only natural I guess that there will always be people trying to squeeze out the last bit of advantage they can get from the game (no offense Ender, you made a wonderful client in general).

Edit:

Is counting really good gameplay? Should we also be forced to write text by using the mouse pointer as a pen?

You make it sound pretty negative. Being aware of what my enemy did and might be able to do next can expand the difference between a good and a bad fighter by adding personal skill in a way so I don't think it is so bad to make players count. Maybe it is not necessary though.

[Chakravanti]

The problem with the default client is that it sucks beyond belief.

Anyway, I believe that any game that has to use a badly designed interface to ramp up difficulty is a shitty game. Haven is difficult enough without migraine-inducing darkness (seriously, I used to get MASSIVE headaches from playing during night time from all the eye strain) or cheesy stealth.

Spot on, also what Burgingham said.

Lightmap is a shitty game mechanic because it downright physically painful. Possibly seizure inducing. Rather, it should be an invisible function blanket that feeds you information (objects, charecters etc.) if you have the skills to see it. The lightmap actually casting darkness would informative as to the power of your ability to see shit, if you're not doing anything that rewquires you to know the limits of your perception then you can safely turn it off.

If the lightmap is to be played with, game mechanics need to suggest that it is useful to do so and (obviously) optional. There should be a benefit for turning lightmap ON rather than for turning it off.

Also, actual game mechanics for lighting suck ass. It's is expensive as fuck to maintain for very little duration and area. As JAckard suggest more options for lighting and significant time and area extensions need to be made to current lighting mechanics.

Incidentally the true effect of custom clients on H&H's development are this (light map issue) and intelligent open discussion about the mechanic and alternatives, deficiencies and necessities for improvement. Also, farming macros and a handful of other minor issues about the game that have come to light and been dealt with client being fed fixed world coordinates also comes to mind if anyone remembers that shit.

Or do nubs still not know what "alpha" means?

[GoldenEmpress]

Yeah, it kind of says a lot when the devs admit that they don't even use the default client. And what it says is that they abandoned that particular area of development. I think I may be the last player in the world to prefer the default client, but that is because I play for immersion and the other players are generally environmental factors for me, like the boars and bears. They provide valuable resources but there is a major risk attached to interacting them, so unless you are after some particular resource it is better to avoid them entirely.

But the game is in alpha, and it is also a journeyman piece. Loftorb used H & H to prove their professional abilities and they encouraged the use of scripts, macros and default clients. This was a way the tested the game and both found flaws in it that took control away from the game owners, and features that the players might like and more. A huge amount of the problems with H & H is simply that it is the part time project of only two guys. Vast numbers of players have come up with great improvements that could be made and posted them confidently in Critiques and Ideas, only to see the suggestion disappear like a stone dropped into the ocean. I am sure a lot of these ideas fit in exactly with what the devs would like to do, if they had time. One day they may address the problem of custom clients the same way that they addressed the problem of macroing players. But there is so much they haven't done, and so much else they have to do, I am not holding my breath on this issue.

If Jorbtar is able to come back to H & H and once more contribute a substantial amount of time to it we will go back to having huge changes again. Remember those? You log in Monday morning and there is now a brand new restriction on the distance you can teleport: Your get to pick between abandoning two out of three of your farm, your mine and your village! And are probably stuck with picking the one location where you had logged out on Sunday.

Remember the new world where they destroyed the huge advantage of macros? Everyone logged in, raced to the nearest tree, started picking branches... and then logged into the forum to howl in disgust because they could no longer spam wicker baskets recreating the vast wasteland in the previous world of treeless areas, populated by hundred and hundreds of baskets and abandoned claims.

So if Jorbtar ever makes a few leetle adjustments to deal with the custom clients it's going to be just as world shattering. My imagination, alas, is not up to imagining how they will do this, but I have confidence that they can confound my expectations and leave me sputtering halfway between tears and laughter.

It seems to me that custom clients are written by players or used by players who want to give themselves certain advantages. A lot of people hate the day/night cycle, or hate being ambushed by a bear, or don't want to actually spend any time hunting for cave bulbs, but mainly I think the custom clients are a result of the wary vigilance that H & H is meant to create. In their own way they create more of this. I know that any player who encounters me not only might want to gak me for lulz, but might be able to see me when I can't see him and if he has used macros and scripts may very well have put less investment into his character than I have put into mine. Is this a disadvantage? Not if you like playing a game filled with wary vigilance and the possibility of perma-death!

tl:dr Not worth reading. Server down for maintenance so I typed a short essay in the forums.