Large open cities in H&H

[Holya]

With overcrowding I more mean people having to compete for resources, everybody's going to want to forage at the best mountain/swamp you're connected too all day, and to a lesser extent I suppose hunting could be a problem.
How do the larger factions deal with this?
Same goes for dependable resources, trees, ore etc.

[Lord_of_War]

Meanwhile in reality it was shit until the wall was up. Lots of raids. Lots of dead people.

Lord of War wants attention. Don't give it to him.

If you want to hear about New Brodgar pre-walls, you can ask an actual resident. He was kicked out after a day or two.

You should note I was never an actual resident, I only had a roundpole fence. And I was there when it was being raided and got aggrod and saw lots of dead people. I'm happy it was just an alt. A lot of brodgarians died, too bad they were good people.

[Kaios]

With overcrowding I more mean people having to compete for resources, everybody's going to want to forage at the best mountain/swamp you're connected too all day, and to a lesser extent I suppose hunting could be a problem.
How do the larger factions deal with this?
Same goes for dependable resources, trees, ore etc.

Oh, well at some point a larger faction would have a network of villages setup on the nearby mountains, swamps, and most likely you'd want to grab any of the medium quality nodes for clay, water and soil, but you're gonna want to grab all the clay nodes you can for sure because you will need them for making bricks if you ever plan to setup brick walls. Anyways, once you have your idols setup over the nodes or forage area the next step is to simply build some crossroads in a safe location somewhere in your village and place the signs. I'm going to bold this little tid-bit of information because I think it's important and it is that you should always keep in mind who the people are that contribute the most effort and time when it comes to digging clay, making bricks and building your walls because these people are going to be your most important assets.

Trees: You may already be aware that planting trees to produce higher quality wood for boards, etc. is important, but chances are once the forestry around your village has become scarce, you are going to need to setup a tree farm that is purely for low quality wood for general use.

Ore: Find some dedicated miners. Preferably people who understand how mining works already.

[Eemerald]

I enjoy randomly running about and tend to find like 2-3 nubs a day, I generally invite them to my village and set them up on an alternate claim to do X task for me(farming straw for mansions, making linen in bulk, mining L1, foraging food, fishing, hunting, etc) and I've found like 90% of my daily chores can be done with no skills or a character that can be built in 1-2 days of barely any work. I also have interior walls, with nothing of any value exposed, so there's no real risk inviting people(unless they summon others in, I suppose, but even then worst that could happen is an alt with bad armor gets sniped or something).

I actually really like the whole open city thing, because it allows u to interact with a lot more people. Also summoning insta kills now, so u wont have issues with anyone summoning ppl in:)

For the following, work under the assumption that the city has:
-large CR network to farmland, foraging spots, fishing spots, etc.
-enough wrought/steel to make enough walls for everybody.
-decent quality industry, 91 kiln, 105+ ovens/smelters, 130 anvil/hammers, Q210ish herb tables, 180 loom, 160 spinning wheel, etc/
-decent tools, can mass produce Q60-80 picks, Q200ish bows, Q180 bear capes, 180ish slings, scythes, etc.
-decent seeds, everything within say 30% of the server's finest, except carrots.

how do u intend to provide all of this? u seem to want plots, and so I'd assume people would need to share such things, which maybe fine for things which cant be moved once built, but if you have a lot of people, who know they can get free stuff just by joining, and the potential to steal a lot of good q stuff by pretending to be interested in ur town etc. You needto really consider what you can realistically provide, and what should really be the job of individuals to do for themselves.

Point being, I've been considering the implications of starting a city like Brodgar, and have a couple specific questions. I would also like general discussion about anything related to starting a nubcity welcoming all, and giving welfare curios out (straw dolls, feather-dusters, seer's tealeaves, poppies, glimmoss, etc) plus enough carrots to build an adequate forager, in exchange for a tax (something like bricks, or something role related, example the above activities I've previously asked people to preform).

In the city everybody would pick a role/s, plus have their forager to do crap for themselves. Would trade in barter stands (or just regular trading, since barter stands would be easily griefable). Everybody could pick a role, and inter trade based on it.
So my questions are:
-How would a city deal with overcrowding, and would it be viable to house a decent number of people underground, if they're given access to a large, shared farmlands? Working under the assumption there is more than one farming area, to keep the newer players/lower skilled players away from the good crops and animals).

that would ultimately depend on how big you wanted the project to be, you can technically put a cut off

-How would a city deal with security? My idea would be everybody's plot gets a CR, leading out to a massive low security CR room with foraging/hunting/fishing/lowQ farming areas, and roadsigns to higher skilled/more trusted players leading to higher farmland, tree farms, recourse nodes, etc. but I'm more worried about murder than vandalism, people requesting to be a hunter, receiving a bow, rushing murder, sniping somebody. Although bad metal armor is cheap and effective, I suppose.

this is the biggest issue with towns where anyone can potentially join, and it's been an issue in all the open towns. also providing people with different crossroads dependant on your perceptions of their abilities of whether u trust them may well cause a lot of resentment from others who don't receive this treatment. It's definitely something you need to keep in mind. unhappy villagers can cause a lot damage

-Lastly, how many people would be interested? I'm not saying I plan to do this, and I'd be competing with brodgar for preasan- villagers, so not much point and this is all hypothetical, but, how many people would be interested? This question is more aimed at people with experience in similar cities, IE Brodgar players/leaders.

I'm sure u can build up your own gathering, ppl like trying new places, with new people, and new leadership. My town is the opposite of much of what brodgar and similar towns are lie, but we are an open/communist style town but villagers are picked very carefully to ensure that the system in place works well. Good luck with it, if you do persue it:)

[Arcanist]

This idea looks great on paper.

The main problem with setting up stuff like this in haven is real life.
People quit/go inactive/don't have enough time to play often
When that happens it makes good land unusable, unless you want to kick people out of their plots.
It also makes taxes hard to regulate, collect and in general have.

And as it's been pointed out, what you suggst is what any large faction worth their salt already has.

[Holya]

not bragging, I know people already have SIGNIFICANTLY better, just pointing out I'm experienced enough in H&H to realize a lot of the implications. Currently have Q140ish trees, 4 LS alts with a CR to 50clay, 52 water,55 soil, 60 (foragables)mountain, 60 feldspar, an island vault, and my base is 30k tiles, I've a sniper Bwall45 tiles out, underground Bwall, section Bwalls, and I've a scavenged/stolen 200x200 Bwall for farming.

I'm confident in my ability to defend my base from raids, unless like 20 people ram sit/I get longwalled with brick, I might just be naive, but with correct design I believe the only problems would be people making new characters/making Pclaim alts to suicide for 1-2 kills on newer players. As well as people camping CRs/nodes where people would be foraging/hunting/fishing, in an attempt to murder them. As for expensive tools etc being used, I'd have those locked away with only certain people having access, burning stuff for other people etc. Alternative could have them open for a couple hours a day, and guard them.

*edit* I didn't explain the market idea very well, I' like the idea of everybody having a role, and based on that role they sell curios/gear/whathaveyou, stuff that wouldn't be bought in AFO, except in bulk to each other in a very slightly regulated market, without actually having public curio houses etc, except for newer villagers who would be given some so they can begin to be self-sufficient.
I'm curious what flaws there are with that plan that I'm not thinking of, as well as solutions
*edit* again unhappy with how I explained it, but too lazy to write 10 paragraphs ;p
Basically a village with taxes, a free market and welfare. I'm making it sound too make like a regular village, where everybody puts in and everybody takes out.
also, I'm not trying to start an open city, I'm just curious/want discussion

P.S: Emerald commented on one of my threads *girlish excited squeal*

[Eemerald]

not bragging, I know people already have SIGNIFICANTLY better, just pointing out I'm experienced enough in H&H to realize a lot of the implications. Currently have Q140ish trees, 4 LS alts with a CR to 50clay, 52 water,55 soil, 60 (foragables)mountain, 60 feldspar, an island vault, and my base is 30k tiles, I've a sniper Bwall45 tiles out, underground Bwall, section Bwalls, and I've a scavenged/stolen 200x200 Bwall for farming.

those things, can be seriously damaged with too many people accessing them, draining them, etc. it's far better to have a few people dig nodes every 8 hours or whatever and distributing to people, and allowing access to forageable nodes

I'm confident in my ability to defend my base from raids, unless like 20 people ram sit/I get longwalled with brick, I might just be naive, but with correct design I believe the only problems would be people making new characters/making Pclaim alts to suicide for 1-2 kills on newer players. As well as people camping CRs/nodes where people would be foraging/hunting/fishing, in an attempt to murder them. As for expensive tools etc being used, I'd have those locked away with only certain people having access, burning stuff for other people etc. Alternative could have them open for a couple hours a day, and guard them.

it's good to be able to defend yourself, but the more it seems people state this, the more likely there will be groups who will attack you just to prove that you can't really defend your own place. I think open style villages work great early world for those who really want to be in them, because everyone else is stuck on building up their towns, and characters. but later world everyone is settled, with multiple characters, bored by the game eager to participate, positively or negatively in other peoples activities.
and as someone stated to be able to defend something with lots of people requires people online a lot. it may also require multiple fighters on at the same time coordinated to fight off any attackers, and when you do fight back, likely chances are people will keep on attacking you until you are destroyed. Sometimes the ebst defence is backing off and not continuing the fight.

*edit* I didn't explain the market idea very well, I' like the idea of everybody having a role, and based on that role they sell curios/gear/whathaveyou, stuff that wouldn't be bought in AFO, except in bulk to each other in a very slightly regulated market, without actually having public curio houses etc, except for newer villagers who would be given some so they can begin to be self-sufficient.
I'm curious what flaws there are with that plan that I'm not thinking of, as well as solutions

there are different things which happens when you help very new players too much, even with basic curios. You have some, who will develop and carry on and be self sufficient and learn to do everything for themselves, and will want to try things and help and will enjoy the game. and others who will remain entirely dependent on you providing them with stuff, and when you stop giving they will attempt to leech off others, or decide once they've taken what they can that it's too much effort and they can't be bothered and quit. or hang around and do nothing, which I personally dislike. I'd rather someone only logged in once a month, did something, took stuff and left for another month, than someone who logs in daily but does absolutely nothing.

I think the market idea would be nice, I know brodgar had a similar system going and as far as I recall it seemed to work, people gave and traded with one another for things, so I think that aspect of it, will just naturally work. but since you can get a lot of very high q items on the forums from big sellers for decent prices, it might not continue long as the town develops except for stuff where quality wasn't vital.

[Vaku]

Currently have Q140ish trees, 4 LS alts with a CR to 50clay, 52 water,55 soil, 60 (foragables)mountain, 60 feldspar, an island vault, and my base is 30k tiles, I've a sniper Bwall45 tiles out, underground Bwall, section Bwalls, and I've a scavenged/stolen 200x200 Bwall for farming.

You have a commendable infrastructure. That's a very good place to begin at this stage in the world with the intent of longevity.

At this point, you need only provide the people, the action plan, and the motivation.

PEOPLE

For people, if you're looking for anyone at this point, aside from griefers, you need not screen too heavily. Honestly.

Paranoia has put a very tight choke-hold on the community from years of the lime light showing on negative outcomes; however, as someone who has loosened the grip of the sifter, I've discovered and have proven for myself, the people who join do in fact keep allegiance to what they've joined, and turn whatever hostilities they may have brought with them, onto not their village & allies, but instead onto individuals not identified as part of their own larger family.

Out of the approximately 40 people to have applied for citizenship to the Edelreich in the first 2 months of its existence, 22 were accepted for completing the application process (which entails responding to a follow-up forum message), 4 were denied for not entering a real forum username (as the follow-up message simply could not be sent), and 9 applicants are marked as pending for not responding to the follow-up message despite it being sent.

The 9, with their citizenship "pending" on paper, I assume have opted themselves out. For whatever reason the Edelreich did not appeal to them since they had receivred their follow-up message, where, of the 5 message types that could be sent out, all applicants were required to do was write "I agree." Of the 22 that did respond, "I agree," did arrive, contribute, and provide for the group. To the contrary of common worry of the community, none of the 22 individuals were griefers to what they joined and had instead managed to police themselves. This would suggest that the griefers that need to be regarded with concern are those with whom you have never met.

Even with the 22 that joined in the first 2 months, they were individuals with varied backgrounds, from being veteran and hostile players to being beginners just a day old (Which brings to mind another misconception: that potential joining individuals must have a long forum history to demonstrate their honesty, or industriousness). To the point of their potential and exercise as griefers, some of the individuals showed less regard to those who are "Othered" from the group they joined. Some practiced petty theft, and called their actions scavenging, while others did in fact scavenge. And the further end of the spectrum, some acted to what they thought to be the interest of the Edelreich and, out of loyalty, aimed to conspire and destroy other groups. It in fact became slightly ugly to me about how transient some persons could become by robbing their former villages because they discovered their newfound loyalties (though, as they had explained, it was not without reason).

That being said, worry not about who you let in, but of whom you can keep Happy! You don't want to have dissenters nor a revolt on your hands, nor of your authority structure.

...with correct design...

THE ACTION PLAN

This correct design of your village and all you do surrounding it, the social structure, culture, and laws you enforce and encourage are for me, a very delicate matter. You can spawn this all very organically, which is what I feel I ought to do with a the Hafen iteration of the Edelreich. It's very important that people both understand the responsibilities they have to each other as well as have activities they will want to do.

In this area, more than anywhere else, the game mechanics fight back. Some things are very boring to do, and you feel like a dick to be the person to delegate nasty chores (which is a role I step away from). If you do not delegate, intrinsically harder workers will drone away at the boring work, while the other players, and I don't blame them, will identify that other H&H activities if not entirely other games are better worth their time.

This is demonstrated in actions like Clay-digging. Clay-digging, as we take a close look, seems to serve no fundamentally larger purpose than to be an impediment to the construction of brick walls. The process is numbing, and for large projects, especially as Open Cities do become, it will be the bane to your existence, considering how much brick walls put survival and prosperity into your favor. As a small aside, while Kaios is correct to note that productive clay-diggers are incredible people to have in your town, do not rule out that everyone has their own best place where they will be the most productive. You may want to make it your job to find that place for them.

The monotony and lack of fun from most mechanics is in part why I have personally distanced myself from the current iteration of the Edelreich and why I plan for, and await for, Hafen.This is also why I am happy that you entertain this idea under the notion that it's a hypothetical, because for the action plan, you need at the base the right questions coupled with a good understanding of the game's contemporary mechanics (which undoubtedly will change), then all else will fall more easily into place.

I like the idea of everybody having a role, and based on that role they sell curios/gear/whathaveyou

MOTIVATION

This goes back to my mentioning that there are good clay-diggers who will not be phased by that activity, and there are people who are cut out for other things, whether they are aware of it or not. What it takes is more than cutting people loose to work their own path in order for them to find what they will enjoy in this game. For me, I always imagined that outside of a leadership role or if I was never delegated any mandatory chores, that I would have loved to have just made my own pepper farm and simply subsist on that crop. Just be a pepper farmer.

That sort of living is not possible in the traditional and small living situations that you find commonly in H&H. Everyone is forced to put in time as clay-diggers, wall-checkers, water-fetchers, and while it makes sense to distribute the crap jobs to the community at large, it is also feasible to monetize and subsist on those positions with the right motivational structure.

One such motivation is money, in-game of course. Many people are split between the idea of coining currency, however, developing a novelty around a currency, fiat or not, and pushing that as payment and as a standard can serve to internally motivate your own community.

Another motivation is fear and compulsion, which I'm not a fan of, but it's an option. You can look into it. It's practiced in H&H through the negative reinforcement of exile, capital punishment for petty "crimes (there are so many of these crimes that are more the pet peeve of megalomaniacs)." Ultimately, being militant and using threats of this nature works here with mixed results.

Letting people do as they may has limited success, not because people do not want to do what they want, but rather they do not know what they want to do. Make it someone's job to introduce and guide people into a profession or trade that is appealing.

Anyways, there's more, but this is all I can do for now with obligations and junk. I love these talks. Feel free to ask of me any questions. I am happy to return with an answer.

[Yolan]

Well it's a topic close to my heart, so I guess Ill comment.


Short answer is that if by city we mean a collection of people who do not necessarily know each other, except in a more abstract way, cities in Haven and Hearth, as it stands, are pretty much impossible to sustain. The last two Brodgars kind of worked out for a few weeks, but in both cases they were started either after lag was fixed and a bunch of people started playing again, or the world was reset. And in both cases they died off within a few weeks, after everybody had built their plots and then got either killed or bored.

The longer answer is that the game at current really can only support "closed"or "concrete" societies. Let me borrow some terminology from Popper's The Open Society and It's Enemies for this because it's kind of useful.

A partial definition of a closed or concrete society is one where everybody knows each other. You are tied together as kin. A tribe is an example of a closed society, although large civilizations can also be "closed" insofar as the social structure is modeled after that of kinship.

In contrast to a closed society, Popper talks about an open or abstract society. In such a society, you may be complete strangers with almost everybody as far as kinship is concerned, but can instead relate to others more abstractly, through the roles of a developed economy or those of state. We have the concept of money, for example, and of leaders who are not necessarily "rulers".

Anyhow, imagine your typical Haven village as much like a human tribe. Everybody knows everybody. And that is why it holds together. You have some trust holding together people that is sustained only by the fact that everybody is spending a reasonable amount of time working together, talking together, fighting together. A village like this can expand a bit, especially with some hard core players with strong personalities and decent leadership, but only to a certain point, after which there is little to be gained by further population expansion, and much to be risked. Complete strangers are definitely not welcome.

In the case of the Brodgars of the past that I tried out, you have an attempt at forming a gathering of people that do not necessarily know each other at all. There is no hard distinction between "inside" and "outside", "us" and "them". Anybody can move in. Anybody can visit.

Of course, we all know that these towns have petered out one-after-another. Except... this is not necessarily due to security risks as people might think. Especially not with the last Brodgar. Most people there went inactive from boredom.

Why boredom? Because our alternative to the closed-society tribal model, we had not an "abstract society" but no society. A bunch of complete strangers, with no relationship with each other, no guiding common good once establishing the city was task-complete, boxed in to individual plots. Basically living in Brodgar was like being a hermit, only with no land and no resources. The benefits of having some neighbors to talk with was never going to be enough to keep people online past a few weeks once the fun of building your own plot and paving out a massive road network has faded. Most people aren't suited for hermit style play with Haven. Especially with restricted space.

If you want to see large "open" cities in Haven and Hearth, you need some game mechanics which facilitate the development of gradually more abstract groups of people living together, probably passing through the tribal stages. There are at the very least, two key components I can think of.

1. Mechanics for managing people within the empire. Ways to organize systems of rank and permissions available to those by the leader. For example, permissions to appoint new members, expel bad apples, and so forth. Ways to set warrants on peoples heads officially. etc.

2. Mechanics for the intersection between permissions etc. from (1) and actual in-game objects and places. For example, gates which you can pass through without any key if you have the right permissions, doors or chests which can be accessed with the right permissions (i.e. ranks), the ability to set permissions for areas of land.

The point is that you need a way to be able to manage larger amounts of people in a fairly abstract way, if you are to have a "city". A real city cannot arise based on the current game mechanics. People still need a way to be connected to each other, in order to feel that their effort is for something other than just themselves. Or, that their self-interest is still self-interest "within" a social context. For example, climbing the ranks.

[Lord_of_War]

Where have you been Yolan? You quit Brodgar so soon after I met you.