ITT: We Discuss Whether free Will exists

[LadyV]

LadyV, to put it simply, you still have provided absolutely no evidence to support let alone prove your claim, and you have not presented a counter argument to any of our claims.

can you disprove action is a choice? You are asking me to prove free will. Im asking you to prove it does not exist.

I have not asked you to do anything, and I also understand that it cannot be proven that free will exists or not. I have, however, given a logically based argument for determinism in macroscopic events which you have not tried to address.

This topic interests me deeply and I'd like to make progress in this discussion, but you aren't helping.

Oh Ninijutsu I have provided an example. Light particles can act as fields when observed by a person. Yet when the same experiment is done when person is not observing they act like a wave. That is Human will affecting the outcome. We expect a thing so it happens. The same thing can be said with prayer for someone who i sill. It has scientificly been proven to aid people. The person is still sick but the difference is the focus of people on that person to improve. Whether you have faith or not it at its least is Human will affecting an outcome. Ever had a a bad feeling or the thought Ive been here? And then you choose to do something else? That is free will.

Whatever the level we go down to will plays a role. Im sorry if you do not find my examples evidence in your eyes. But you can not dismiss it so lightly. You are looking at things from a purely science orient of facts. Very well then prove or disprove it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_theory

As I mentioned it probably is not enough for some of you. But can you dismiss my statements factually? Because ultimately your question is one of faith/philosophy. Can we change our outcome? Yes I do believe we can.

[overtyped]

Bob dole thinks there is no free will, which is why you have no choice but to vote for bob dole.
But really, there are so many probabilities that a universe in which there is free will would be identical to one without.
Most people that want to discuss this subject are bible thumpers that want to push the " god gave you free will" argument, which is the same as saying unicorns gave us free will to someone who is not a bible pusher.

[Ninijutsu]

Oh Ninijutsu I have provided an example. Light particles can act as fields when observed by a person. Yet when the same experiment is done when person is not observing they act like a wave. That is Human will affecting the outcome. We expect a thing so it happens. The same thing can be said with prayer for someone who i sill. It has scientificly been proven to aid people. The person is still sick but the difference is the focus of people on that person to improve. Whether you have faith or not it at its least is Human will affecting an outcome. Ever had a a bad feeling or the thought Ive been here? And then you choose to do something else? That is free will.

Whatever the level we go down to will plays a role. Im sorry if you do not find my examples evidence in your eyes. But you can not dismiss it so lightly. You are looking at things from a purely science orient of facts. Very well then prove or disprove it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_theory

As I mentioned it probably is not enough for some of you. But can you dismiss my statements factually? Because ultimately your question is one of faith/philosophy. Can we change our outcome? Yes I do believe we can.

You (and many other people) misinterpret the potential ramifications of the studies you speak of. It's true that it has been substantially proved in a lab that the presence of conscious observation causes changes in the world of quantum physics.
-a brief explanation for those who don't know-
Let's say an electron can either be blue, red, or green. It cannot be purple etc, just blue, red, or green. When a consciousness is not observing the particle, it will be a combination of all three, all the time. However, as soon as a consciousness is observing the particle, it will choose one of the three options.

The problem with your interpretation of this phenomenon, LadyV, is that a fundamental rule of quantum physics is that what is microscopic remains microscopic, and what is macroscopic remains macroscopic. Collapsing a cloud of possibilities with conscious observance is a microscopic function; it does not necessarily translate into macroscopic effects.

The same thing can be said with prayer for someone who i sill. It has scientificly been proven to aid people. The person is still sick but the difference is the focus of people on that person to improve.

I'm sure a case could be made that it produces a positive placebo effect in the person, but I'm skeptical about human will directly affecting a person's well being in any other form. Source please?

[LadyV]

And there you go. You believe or you do not. Science can not prove free will any more than religion can prove it not. You are seeking an answer to a circular question. You may argue this study and that, this belief or that. In the end however the sumation will be I do not truly know. And we are back to believe or do not.

Sorry to deprive you of intellectual brow beating but if you want to solve a problem try choosing one that directly helps peoples lives. I don't mean to be rude but I have lived long enough to hear these debates over and over to the point everyone leaves with a different conclusion, never quite the same. In its self that proves free will. Becasue if facts were absolute then we would all fall into sync.

[Ninijutsu]

On the contrary, you're being quite rude. You enter the discussion saying we're all wrong, outright refuse to provide elaboration, and give up by asserting that it all doesn't matter anyway.

[LadyV]

Not at all. I gave you my examples to which you provided no counter in science. You didnt even entertain the possibility anything I said could be correct. You dismissed me at every turn. Even when I gave links to similar discussions you ignored them. You only seek to debate theory. By all means if you choose to, do so.

However as you proceed you should recognize your true question is not is their free will. However it should be what is free will. Unless you define what your test subject is you can not really test it now can you? And when you finally come to a consensus of what free will is you can proceed to ask does it exist.

If you can not eliminate a possibility through test then it remains a possibility.


I am sorry if you took my replies as rude. They were never meant so. However I did answer you ever step. Just not the answers you wanted. Continue if you wish. I have made my point.

[Xcom]

There is no free will. We are all stuck in the matrix.

[Amanda44]

In order for us to have 'free' will our choices must be free, uninfluenced and uncaused.
As human behaviour is determined by influences outside the individuals control, environmental and genetic, this would imply there is no such thing as free will.

Genetics play a large part in this debate as certain genes will cause specific reactions, therefore our responses are 'caused' and not a thought out process. It has also been shown that the brain reacts to stimuli before the 'self' becomes conscious of the decision, the brain functions just like any other other organ of the human body, automatically, like the heart, liver, lungs, kidney, etc. in order to preserve.

So, it does look as though, however unsavoury we may find it, free will is actually an illusion, our choices are determined by our environment and our biological makeup.
Cause and effect.

@ LadyV - It just feels like we have a choice, really that decision has already been made, you choose not to buy the gun or pull the trigger but you could not have chosen any other option.
Tbh, I'm still fighting for free will, lol, we have the ability to change and adapt, idk, my head tells me there is no free will but my heart still wants to believe it.

[Xcom]

I'll just leave these links here. I thought it was interesting and relates to this topic quite alot. Explains the basic concept behind choice and in succession free will.

TED talk about intelligence equation
TED talk paradox of choice

Edit: The TED talks summarized.

Remove choices for an individual <<<---->>> Increase choices for individual
Isolation and loss of freedom <<<--->>> Paralysis of choice and overwhelm

[Ravenclaw]

Unlike animals whoms reaction is linked to thier genes like a programm to its script there is always a free will for us humans and we can always decide what kind of person we are due to our reflexive consciousness. though it seems easier to do "wrong things" (other subject) and outer influences / genes might make u some decisions harder u ALWAYS have a decision do do the right thing for example.
would be kind of silly if wed be condemned for killing someone if its in our genes to kill and there would be no way to stop us.