Python Programming: your experiences

[loftar]

No, if I'm saying anything, it would be that if you want performance, you need a language for which a good compiler is available. Such languages include (but are not limited to) C, C++, Java and CL, but Python is not one of them. There's no need to use multiple languages, though that may be beneficial in certain (relatively rare) situations.

[FLO]

im sorry im seriously not with it today, compiler please define

[loftar]

A compiler is a program that takes source code and translates it to machine code that the CPU can actually run. Examples are GCC or MSVC.

[FLO]

ahh yeah i get you now

[FLO]

so is haven/hafen 1 code or several if so why and how did this benefit the game/yourself

[Mernil]

thats awesome do you do other languages? such as java, js, c#, c, c++ etc? if so can you tell me in detail what the difference is im a bit too lazy read an essay for each one

As stated by Loftar, compiled languages are way faster in term of execution time. Though, programming with these globally requires more time because of the low level of abstraction.

At very low level of abstraction you'll find Assembly.
This is probably the fastest language (it's machine language), but it's a pain in the ass to have to code anything using this - really.
I wouldn't recommend learning it, unless you plan to crack softwares.

Then, above Assembly, you'll find higher level languages, like C, C++, Java, C# ...
These are still quick, and it's easier to program with them.
Compiling a program means, converting the program source code, to Assembly (which is the language the machines really understand).

And above that, you'll have Scripting languages, they are the very-high level languages : Python, Perl, Ruby, PHP, Javascript, ...
These are very easy to code with, though they are quite slow in terms of execution.
Their interpreter are often written using C or C++.

Javascript is still quite different to me because I use it only for web-clients.
Since it's the only one available in most browsers, if you plan on doing websites, I'd recommend learning it (and it's leading library jQuery which makes it really easier to work with).
It is also used server-side (mainly with node.js) though that's not my cup of tea.

Now I've learned a few of the others, most notably PHP, Python and (a bit of) Perl.
My favorite is definitely Python for tons of reasons I won't start explaining because otherwise I'm not going to sleep anytime soon.

[loftar]

As stated by Loftar, compiled languages are way faster in term of execution time.

You'll find that there isn't a clear distinction between compiled languages and non-compiled languages. Lisp, for instance, was interpreted for some 20 years before good compilers were written for it.

Python can also be compiled into Java bytecode (with Jython) which is in turn turned into machine code by Hotspot. That translation isn't particularly efficient, however, since all the dynamic stuff the language does still needs to be resolved at run-time. But it is compiled, nonetheless. The only useful distinction, therefore, is whether there's a good compiler for a particular language.

Though, programming with these globally requires more time because of the low level of abstraction.

For the same reason, not all compiled languages are low-level, and neither are all efficiently compiled languages. CL, Scheme, Haskell or Julia are examples of languages with quite efficient compilers that are very far from low-level. One could argue the same for Java (though the argument could go both ways).

Scripting languages [...] Javascript [...] quite slow in terms of execution.

You might be surprised at how good V8 is at compiling fast JavaScript. It's not C, but it's certainly not Python, either.

so is haven/hafen 1 code or several if so why and how did this benefit the game/yourself

Haven is four main modules that are mostly one language each. The server is written in C, the client in Java, the map generator in Lisp and then there's a repository of various utilities, which are written mostly in Python.

I use C for the server, because it's the one fast language that I'm most familiar and comfortable with. What I find nice with C is that it is quite low-level and doesn't rely on compiler magic, so it's fairly easy to reason about the program's performance characteristics (as opposed to eg. Java or Lisp, where I constantly have to ask myself "does this get allocated on the stack?", "will the compiler inline this?", "how long does this allocation take?", &c&c&c). I guess I could have used C++, but I find it generally bloated, inelegant and unwieldy, so I try to stay away from it.

I initially used Java for the client so that I could use Java WebStart, though I'm starting to regret that decision now with Oracle's certificate faggotry. :P I've learned to appreciate some other features of Java, however; mostly, how well-implemented Hotspot is and how well it can optimize some high-level features of the language, and also portable loading of dynamic code.

I use Lisp for the map generator since I felt I needed convenient symbolic manipulation for it but also some quite serious speed, and also because Lisp is a very nice language. :)

I use Python for the utilities because it's also quite symbolic and convenient, but also much better integrated with the operating system than Lisp is. Python is quite a nice language, but I'm not such a fan that I don't often consider a life outside of it. It's a bit inelegant, though not horribly so.

[Potjeh]

If you're going for game programming C++ is nice because it's the most widely used language in the industry, so it's easy to find good tutorials and libraries.

Anyway, loftar, what's your view on C#? I'll be using this at my new job because they're using Unity3D. I mostly used C++ so far, never C#.

[Mernil]

You might be surprised at how good V8 is at compiling fast JavaScript. It's not C, but it's certainly not Python, either.

Nothing blocks Python from being as fast if not money.
Also I don't think PyPy is that far behind v8.

[loftar]

Anyway, loftar, what's your view on C#? I'll be using this at my new job because they're using Unity3D. I mostly used C++ so far, never C#.

I've never used C#, so I can't really speak in much detail about it, but from what I've gathered most of the language fundamentals are very much like Java. Add to that that Java is open source while C# is some weird Microsoft invention made in imitation of Java, and I've never found much reason to try it instead of Java. It's not like I'm particularly fond of Java to begin with. :)

I started reading the CLR specs at one time, and they seemed horribly convoluted and inelegant (and badly written), which turned me off further.

If I were proposed to do a project in C#, perhaps what would concern me the most is that I might have to use Visual Studio. ^^

Nothing blocks Python from being as fast if not money.

There are several features of Python that block it from being fast, mostly that, really, like I've said, everything is dynamic. It's extremely hard for a compiler to prove a great many invariants, including but not limited to:

• Constantness of globals
• Constantness of class members
• Even then, constantness of instance members
• Monomorphity of primitive types
• Type specificity of function parameters
• The translation of built-in operators

I'm not saying that these troubles can inherently not be overcome and that a good compiler couldn't be built given enough perseverance and hard work, but it is (intrinsically) a lot harder than many (most) other languages, and no matter the theoretical possibilities, there's no good compiler right now. Even Google tried, but had to abandon the effort.

Also I don't think PyPy is that far behind v8.

PyPy is faster than CPython in some benchmarks (but far from all), but it's mostly not a revolutionary difference. V8 can come almost within an order of magnitude from C performance on some programs.