Okay, Shockedfrog, We Can Take The Trees But...

[Hamel]

In any other situation I'm sure many of you would recognise him as a genuine griefer, but for some reason it becomes ok because it's revenge for something comparatively minor and because enough people think it's funny? I understand and to some extent respect community loyalty, but don't let it blind you to the truth about people.

Comparatively minor? You messed up some sixteen or so crucibles of wrought iron! That's about thirty-two bars of potential steel! And not only did you mess them up, you stole the wrought iron too!

That's the kind of thing I'd like to see more of, the lack of that kind of creativity so far is probably one of my biggest disappointments considering all the DF players involved here.

First, you mess up our crucibles, then you call us uncreative for not discovering a way to guard them fast enough?

but I believe the true resolution to all this will come when the game's natural community expands. When (if) that actually will happen, though, I currently have no idea.

So, you think B12 players are an "unnatural" addition to the H&H community? We have just as much right to be here as you do.

However, even if my previous actions could be forgiven, the other people make that impossible. While most are just resorting to slander, there are those such as Devour, who has chosen to block off my land.

I am fairly sure you will find that almost all of us have similar stances as Devour on this matter. While I believe you did nothing that calls for out-of-game punishments, you are completely deserving of numerous in-game punishments from the Bottleneck community. Which we will give you in whatever way we possess. The people of Bottleneck will never stop hunting your characters.

People failing to actually read what I write is a great part of the problem.

We are reading everything you say. It's what you're saying that's the problem.

[Devour]

Vattic, I am not sure exactly who 'we' is, but there are those who did not forgive and it would have to be unanimous for it to be as important as you seem to think it was. Also, it should be pointed out that the forgiveness I asked for at that time was forgiveness for the decision to use an alt, not forgiveness for the action I actually took which would have been perfectly reasonable on my main. I did not ask for forgiveness in my previous post, I mentioned forgiveness while saying that even if it was realistically possible there would still be issues. I have also, several times, clarified that the use of 'RP' here is not as straightforward as the use you refer to. People failing to actually read what I write is a great part of the problem.

As for the not a griefer comment, that has been taken out of context. It was clearly intended to challenge someone else's definition of griefing.

Deliberately attempting to block off someone's access to the game goes beyond reasonable gameplay. The fact that he did not succeed does not mean he should not apologize for his action, and/or take the time to undo it.

There's a reason people read very little of what you write.

Mainly because 90% of it is useless fluff, and the other 10% is insults, threats or extortion.

[shockedfrog]

I don't mean unnatural in an insulting way, just that the game doesn't really have a whole lot of players who aren't already connected through B12 (or to a lesser extent ABB, but I haven't heard much from them recently) and isn't attracting many, so the balance is currently heavily in B12's favour. The only effort the rest appear to be making so far is that lake village, and they have good ideas but I feel a lack of ambition, though that might just be because they're quite quiet about things.

Try to hunt me down, that's fine. Try to make things difficult for me, that's fine. Try to block my ability to play at all, not fine. Surely that's reasonable?

[Devour]

There's one thing you're completely and utterly avoiding, shocked.

No one else is attempting to ruin our village. EVERYONE except you, and a few singular others, is acting pretty much in unison to make the game better and more fun for newbies.

[StarChaser]

I am pretty sure that there are a lot more active players than just B12, ABB, The Ocean village and a few solo players. I think you are putting to much abuse towards them simply because you are up yourself about some high and noble thing you 'think' you are doing. I think the hearth block isn't that over the top as you seem to be so happy with making other people unhappy it only seems fair that you are unhappy. Eye for an eye?
Also. This is an Alpha. The more the better wouldn't you say? Who cares where they are from.

[Vattic]

Firstly when it came to forgiveness over your first actions against Bottleneck everybody forgave and never mentioned it again to my knowledge at least, I don't know how we might poll peoples true opinions on how much forgiveness they had for you and if it was unanimous as people can lie, as you proved at the time.

Secondly you say, in your last post, you meant forgiveness for using an alt to do your dirty work, fair enough. When it comes to this I would say that its hard for most involved to separate the anger over the loss of their work and the anger over you using alt to do this. Perhaps if you let us kill your main that might help as that's what would have happened no? It's hard to forgive someone for their actions when they continue to benefit from said actions.

You say that there will always be issues even if forgiveness was possible, of course there will be a lack of trust involving you and your characters but we would be fools otherwise. I don't even understand why you bring this up.

As for your greifer comment I am now using it to challenge your definition. You seem to redefine the usage of your words to try and gain sway in the discussion and this is a great part of the problem. Just so you know I do read your posts and I take my time with them too.

I notice you say "apologize ... and/or remove it", while I don't disagree that an apology might be appropriate for the intent of the actions I agree that it really is an "and/or" when it comes to removing it, its doing no harm after all.

I am still not completely sure what it is you are after save some incentive to leave the town alone. I also notice you haven't informed us of what lies have been spread or what slander has been told? What rights of yours have been broken? I can see some hypocrisy in the intent to block your house admittedly but there is also some in your moving of the goal posts.

I am trying to meet you half way, I agree with a number of the things you have said which I'm sure you realise.

[Hamel]

I don't mean unnatural in an insulting way, just that the game doesn't really have a whole lot of players who aren't already connected through B12 (or to a lesser extent ABB, but I haven't heard much from them recently) and isn't attracting many, so the balance is currently heavily in B12's favour.

So? You got a problem with that?

Try to hunt me down, that's fine. Try to make things difficult for me, that's fine. Try to block my ability to play at all, not fine. Surely that's reasonable?

Sure, no one is currently preventing you from playing. Devour simply blocked up some property you have said you aren't using anymore. He even posted it in the "Bugs" sub-forum for goodness sake. Besides, the Devs have already said that they plan on making it so that you cannot get stuck that way.

[RaptorJedi]

There's six of us ABB folks here (myself included), but we're really only settling in one place because it's easier. We each have our own properties, and we only share what we have surplus of, and Blaccy has moved off to the middle of nowhere. But I hardly see why it matters who belongs to what group. I think that groups of players who've never met outside of the game could easily reach B12's status in the world. We could over at Camp Noctis if we really truely felt like it.

The only think stopping random collections of people reaching the heights that Bottleneck has is their lack of trying I think. It has nothing to do with them coming from the same place on the internet, it's the fact that they manage to work together for something, instead of shooting each other in the face with arrows.

[Devour]

As far as I can tell, shockedfrog's main reason for doing this is he doesn't like the idea of people having more friends than him, especially from a community which plays games together a LOT.

1 > 0

[sonerohi]

The way it seems to me is that Shockedfrog is being a bit jealous here. He has to do things himself and has no real aim. He sees a community striving towards goals. Who wouldn't be a bit jealous? Perfectly reasonable. What is unreasonable, is that he decided to start sabotaging their goals and their way of life, instead of simply trying to join them and coexist. It might've been possible after the tree cutting for a resolve to come about and for unity to be acheived, but after tampering with the crucibles, there can't be forgiveness at this point. Bottleneck wants Shockedfrog gone, Shockedfrog wants to be accepted. So long as he feels unwelcome, shockedfrog will steal their stuff. Enough stuff has been stolen that Bottleneck can't accept him. The only solution is for some divine intervention to keep Shockedfrog away from Bottleneck, and for a community to then take Shockedfrog in.