Parents murder kid (discussion on death penalty)

[Flame]

the formula was just handed to me

Oh.. math. i suck at it.. and a day i've asked to my teacher the real meaning of a formula.
"Proff! I.. i can't remember what i don't understand! To me, numbers and symbols ar just empthy lines on a book. But i'm sure that they HAVE to be something, in reality! Something like a tree, a concept, a... well, not ust a number."
"Yes, those are, in fact, very usefull in reality and often are concrete."
"Then why i can't know the meaning of this formula, instead of study it and simply remember it?"
"...Oh, but i can't explain it to you why it works. I know how it works, it's absolutely concrete, BUT you should study so many things, before, to understand a little of what i could explain. You need to be at the 3th math university year, to understand what i'm going to say."
"... can't you explain me this now? In a simplest way?"
"No. It whould make no sense, for you."

you know nothing, Flame du Nicols!

So sad, that day for me! ç_ç I've understood that what we study is the Result. Just the RESULT of a lot, lot of thinking, formulas and solutions that need more knowledge to be fully understood.

Not everything can be "explained". And i've discovered this by myself.
I was talking with my cousin, 4 years younger. I was studing atoms and such. She neither knew what those was so i've tried to explain to her. "everything is made by lots of dots, just like the sand. Tiny dots that creates the matter, the shapes, the living."
She didn't understood. I've retried, but there were no hope. Too early, too little knowledge to imagine something so weird.

You can't imagine something that is too far to what you know.


Imho, the bigger problem of school system is the modern history. There so little modern history... and is one of the most usefull things one should know.
Everything else is a base that you need to learn that the world is Full of things that you can't understand, but you will if you want.
The school is not a perfect brainwash machine. Art, music and many other things are "useless" and absolutely not brain washing. Everything that enlarge your orizons and ask imagination, is dangerous for a brainwashing machine. And if you talk with the teachers, most of them are there to enlarge your orizons.
Some of them are old and are waiting to stay at home... or bored as hell. (or half crazy, too! i got a couple of crazy teacher in my life.)
But if the school was that brainwashing machine that you say, i whould suggest thousands of improvment to make it works better! As it is now, is not so good.
American Tv is really worste!!! XDD

[overtyped]

the formula was just handed to me

Oh.. math. i suck at it.. and a day i've asked to my teacher the real meaning of a formula.
"Proff! I.. i can't remember what i don't understand! To me, numbers and symbols ar just empthy lines on a book. But i'm sure that they HAVE to be something, in reality! Something like a tree, a concept, a... well, not ust a number."
"Yes, those are, in fact, very usefull in reality and often are concrete."
"Then why i can't know the meaning of this formula, instead of study it and simply remember it?"
"...Oh, but i can't explain it to you why it works. I know how it works, it's absolutely concrete, BUT you should study so many things, before, to understand a little of what i could explain. You need to be at the 3th math university year, to understand what i'm going to say."
"... can't you explain me this now? In a simplest way?"
"No. It whould make no sense, for you."

you know nothing, Flame du Nicols!

So sad, that day for me! ç_ç I've understood that what we study is the Result. Just the RESULT of a lot, lot of thinking, formulas and solutions that need more knowledge to be fully understood.

Not everything can be "explained". And i've discovered this by myself.
I was talking with my cousin, 4 years younger. I was studing atoms and such. She neither knew what those was so i've tried to explain to her. "everything is made by lots of dots, just like the sand. Tiny dots that creates the matter, the shapes, the living."
She didn't understood. I've retried, but there were no hope. Too early, too little knowledge to imagine something so weird.

You can't imagine something that is too far to what you know.


Imho, the bigger problem of school system is the modern history. There so little modern history... and is one of the most usefull things one should know.
Everything else is a base that you need to learn that the world is Full of things that you can't understand, but you will if you want.
The school is not a perfect brainwash machine. Art, music and many other things are "useless" and absolutely not brain washing. Everything that enlarge your orizons and ask imagination, is dangerous for a brainwashing machine. And if you talk with the teachers, most of them are there to enlarge your orizons.
Some of them are old and are waiting to stay at home... or bored as hell. (or half crazy, too! i got a couple of crazy teacher in my life.)
But if the school was that brainwashing machine that you say, i whould suggest thousands of improvment to make it works better! As it is now, is not so good.
American Tv is really worste!!! XDD

Maybe math was a bad example, but you are right, if you tried to explain 12th grade math to a 8 year old, they wouldn't grasp it.
Being older now I realize that the answers are not important. Getting it right is not important, grades aren't important. Learning to think, and interact is 100 times more useful than memorizing a formula or a line of text, and perhaps I could of been more than I am if I had been taught how to think and not what to think.

[MagicManICT]

if you tried to explain 12th grade math to a 8 year old, they wouldn't grasp it.

Fun fact: this is wrong. I'm assuming by "12th grade," you mean the average 12th grade math (basic math skills, some minor HS algebra) , not for college bound students (college algebra, calculus, trig). Even then, an 8 year old is old enough to start understanding basic algebra concepts, even if not able to work proofs on theorems. I explicitly recall extra problems in my elementary math books like "If you add 8 to me, I equal 12. What number am I?" ie x + 8 = 12. this was as early as the third grade if I recall right, maybe 4th. (3rd in US would be about 8-9 yo). This certainly isn't the same as factoring 2x^2 + 14x + 20 or learning to do long addition without pencil or paper (classes as young as 4th grade have been taught that trick), but it is algebra, and I've known more than a few graduates that can barely do that much.

[Flame]

taught how to think and not what to think.

This is hard to apply. The role is up to the teachers and some of them are good at it. Most of them NO. Well... or maybe yes.... at last, that teacher that was screaming about "The BEAST is real and you have to fear it!" was enlighting on how one should not accept everything is sayd from an acculturated person. She was pretty crazy, poor her, but teached me a lot, somehow! XD

Anyway i don't really know how we are supposed to teach "how to think".
Do you have some suggestion?

[overtyped]

taught how to think and not what to think.

This is hard to apply. The role is up to the teachers and some of them are good at it. Most of them NO. Well... or maybe yes.... at last, that teacher that was screaming about "The BEAST is real and you have to fear it!" was enlighting on how one should not accept everything is sayd from an acculturated person. She was pretty crazy, poor her, but teached me a lot, somehow! XD

Anyway i don't really know how we are supposed to teach "how to think".
Do you have some suggestion?

You can find all sorts of good ways on google, from minds greater than mine.
Here is a few of my own methods though.
Teach something without an answer, like the teacher reads a murder mystery and asks write down why you think the killer did it, and never reveal the answer. The importance is on making your own conclusions even if they are wrong.
You can't physically tell a student how to think because the moment you do they are thinking in the way you are telling them. You don't tell them to be critical you give them problems that can't be solved unless you are. Telling stories without an ending, giving math problems that can't be solved even in real tests, because in the real world you can encounter problems which you can't fix, so you need to teach outside the box of just static correct or incorrect answers, and static formulas to a problem don't promote original thought. Show obviously flawed ways of thinking, and ask how they think it should be. You would need a whole set of books of poor methods, but i'm no writer.
Another one that would never be teached is to question everything, especially authority. The reason this would never happen is that it would be the complete death of religion. It would be nice to have teachers to dissect religions, because when you read something unbiased, like for example if a christian reads the quaran, they can see how much of a pedophile and women hater that prophet is, and a muslim reading the bible can see how much that god love genocide + women hate. People in their respective religions are blinded by their own religions flaws. If you don't question everything even things you were told were true, you aren't thinking at all.

[MagicManICT]

Another one that would never be teached is to question everything, especially authority. The reason this would never happen is that it would be the complete death of religion.

Some would argue it would be the complete death of civilization, period. It's why Socrates was put to death, according to lore. The corruption of youth by teaching them to be radical and question what authority says is a bad thing, man.

Now pass the doobie, man, and turn up Steppenwolf. I really groove to that Magic Carpet Ride.

[overtyped]

Another one that would never be teached is to question everything, especially authority. The reason this would never happen is that it would be the complete death of religion.

Some would argue it would be the complete death of civilization, period. It's why Socrates was put to death, according to lore. The corruption of youth by teaching them to be radical and question what authority says is a bad thing, man.

Now pass the doobie, man, and turn up Steppenwolf. I really groove to that Magic Carpet Ride.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trial_of_Socrates You should of done a quick wiki search before talking about the trial of Socrates. He was put to death because his methods were deemed too radical, and because he didn't properly honor the gods in his teachings, the first and the second reason are really the same.

There is nothing wrong with questioning everything. When I say questioning I'm talking about critically examining evidence. If your teacher told you the sky is purple and society agreed, if you examine that and determine that it is actually blue, that's what questioning everything means.
How in the hell could this possibly mean the end of civilization? If anything it would progress it.
If you scrutinize religion it then immediately falls apart, so I can see why Socrates was such a big threat to them. If you raise a generation that can think for themselves, what do you think happens to the blind faith aspect that religion requires?

[Potjeh]

That sounds a lot like nihilism. Do you really want to get the wind knocked out of you with a bowling ball, or have your ear bitten off?

[Tonkyhonk]

Another one that would never be teached is to question everything, especially authority. The reason this would never happen is that it would be the complete death of religion.

teach yourself a bit of rinzai zen (and past participles), and youll withdraw your own comment there.

[Flame]

There is nothing wrong with questioning everything.

How can, a questioning, be of some use if the one that is questioning knows NOTHING of what is questioning?
And how can you convince someone to STUDY, if he can question you and say that study is of no use?

Do you really think that every single mouth of the world should start to question everything just because "is good to questioning"?

HOW can you teach to someone, when he have the full right to just shut you up and question what you've studied?
You could neither say to them that the fire burns. They HAVE to test it by themselves and so... every meaning of books, history, licterature and memories is gone.

No.
Is ok to say "We should learn to think more" but the only way usefull to think is "We really should feel the happyness of KNOW MORE, do research and STUDY" so that we can think.
Questioning randomly everything with paranoia have nothing to do with "learn to think".