Moammar al-Qadhafi = dead!

[burgingham]

I am afraid it is in german :/

I might give some more insights on it tomorrow, but now I need to sleep.

[snakkez]

I am afraid it is in german :/

I might give some more insights on it tomorrow, but now I need to sleep.

Not a problem, I can speak German as well as Spanish and English lol

[Sarchi]

Not only did they kill him without trial -- they raped him as well.

[kohg]

and he's not exactly rape material.

[cauda_draconis]

The more i read thread like this - the more i understand, that there is some bottomless abyss between the western and our mentality.

I could hardly understand, how 8-monthes civil war could be considered as "revolutuion against the tyrant"? Who is fighting on his side - zombies, ressurected by necromancy?

I could hardly understand, how could you consider all modern neocolonial wars as "crusade for democracy". Really, it's hard to imagine for me, that no one from you never think about "why we spread democracy only to the countries with large reserves of oil?". Dont you understand, that dictators in the South Africa are million times more cruel, then dictators in the middle east?

Dont you understand, that Lybia was the more social state from the middle east and north africa states, with free healthcare, education and social programs? I'm sure, and i could bet with anyone here, that Lybia hardly gets more democracy, but definitely drop it's standarts of living to shit.

[burgingham]

With people being tortured and killed. There is nothing social about that, not even when a single person has to suffer for the others health. The human rights are something universal and not something western specific.

Also most revolutions in the arabic states were driven by the people (the initial drive in Libya too). You conveniently just leave that out of your argument.

There is a difference, yes. Especially the russian mentality has to change here and get its own phase of enlightenment I fear. Over the last months I have gained a pretty deep insight into this mentality and into the horrible situation your country is in. Corruption, hunger, unemployment, even police torture and now Putin is wrapping up his little game for power by becoming the next Stalin and the Russians are applauding their strong man. Even the Arabs have realized by now that democracy is the way out of physical opression, out of corruption etc. Nobody is arguing here that the western democracies are anywhere near perfect, but they damn well beat any of these authoritarian countries, where people still have to endure physical brutality and the opression of an independent mind.

[cauda_draconis]

With people being tortured and killed. There is nothing social about that, not even when a single person has to suffer for the others health. The human rights are something universal and not something western specific.

I would like to take you to any of the ex-ussr countries in the early 90s. You have a wonderful chance to tell old mans and womans, that they should live for 1$ and be grateful for they now can shout "Yeltzin is a homo" on the Red Square. I think you would like that sight - extremely poor country, totally corrupted, with no police and law, with the workers, who could not get salary for several monthes. I'm sure, you would say: "i see, how happy those guys from getting some political rights".

Also most revolutions in the arabic states were driven by the people (the initial drive in Libya too). You conveniently just leave that out of your argument.

Burg, let's begin from the honesty in the discussion. You could call "revolution" Tunis event, but what happened in Libya is called "civil war"

Even the Arabs have realized by now that democracy is the way out of physical opression, out of corruption etc. Nobody is arguing here that the western democracies are anywhere near perfect, but they damn well beat any of these authoritarian countries, where people still have to endure physical brutality and the opression of an independent mind.

Lol, i'm from Ukraine, Burgi. You sold us some revolution not so long ago, remember? The first thing, new democratic government did those days, was arresting of some our political leaders (i'm from the east part of country, yes), and nor Europe nor US said any word of protest against that fact, but now, when the situation reflected, they are shouting like mad.
You could believe me, Burg, "human right" means for west world only "rights of our friends".
Or, perhaps, i'm mistaking? Ok, then you could easily beat me with counterargument - just tell me at least one case, when western world defended russian minority in any of the ex-ussr countries.

[dullah]

The more i read thread like this - the more i understand, that there is some bottomless abyss between the western and our mentality.

I could hardly understand, how 8-monthes civil war could be considered as "revolutuion against the tyrant"? Who is fighting on his side - zombies, ressurected by necromancy?

I could hardly understand, how could you consider all modern neocolonial wars as "crusade for democracy". Really, it's hard to imagine for me, that no one from you never think about "why we spread democracy only to the countries with large reserves of oil?". Dont you understand, that dictators in the South Africa are million times more cruel, then dictators in the middle east?

Dont you understand, that Lybia was the more social state from the middle east and north africa states, with free healthcare, education and social programs? I'm sure, and i could bet with anyone here, that Lybia hardly gets more democracy, but definitely drop it's standarts of living to shit.

This is so full of truth.

Iraq had the best socio-healthcare model in the middle east.

Also most revolutions in the arabic states were driven by the people (the initial drive in Libya too). You conveniently just leave that out of your argument.

This is untrue, history have shown us most revolutions are paid by external lobbies/powers.

[burgingham]

I would like to take you to any of the ex-ussr countries in the early 90s. You have a wonderful chance to tell old mans and womans, that they should live for 1$ and be grateful for they now can shout "Yeltzin is a homo" on the Red Square. I think you would like that sight - extremely poor country, totally corrupted, with no police and law, with the workers, who could not get salary for several monthes. I'm sure, you would say: "i see, how happy those guys from getting some political rights".

So basically the same as now just that they took away their liberty to shout "Yeltzin is a homo" again?

Didn't know you are from the Ukraine btw, but Putin will make sure that sooner or later there is no difference again.


The western world has not defended any of the Russian minorities, because not all here is well either. I never said it was, we have big flaws in character in our countries too. One is the relationship to Russia. A country we never could truly get along with, but on the other hand too strong so we cannot afford to alienate Putin and his crew. I am very critical about the stance of the western states towards Russia and believe me nobody would wish as much as me right now that they finally spoke up and told Putin that his way back into some Soviet superpower is the wrong way. People in Russia and in the countries around Russia have to suffer, have lost their freedom because of his auhtoritarian regime and as you can see by my arguments so far I am trying to hold up the human rights high. So ye,s the western world is to blame here, but of course you cannot just scrap political interests when you are talking about politics. It is a very complex game of power and of balances and it sometimes is played in a way that you and me both would disagree with. Sometimes oiur disagreement is very justified, sometimes there probably is no other option for the ones in power. That however is another topic and I sadly have no more time to elaborate on this right now. Just know that I in no way am here to simply discredite the non-democratic states and act like here we live in paradise. The flaws here are big and people are already protesting against what is wrong here too. Still the human rights and the basic values of democracy are something that the rest of the world should learn can only benefit the people of a state. And afterall the state does belong to them, to the people. Not to some murdering bastard thirtsy for power (whomever oyu want to apply this last sentence to)

[cauda_draconis]

So basically the same as now just that they took away their liberty to shout "Yeltzin is a homo" again?

Lol, Burg, you know, i dont like to be pathetic, so do not search pathos in them.
But in the 90-s 60-70% of families in ex-ussr earn enought money to buy some food, but not enought to buy some new clothes.

Didn't know you are from the Ukraine btw, but Putin will make sure that sooner or later there is no difference again.

Hope so, hope so.
At least now only Putin tries to protect russian-speaking people here, never EU, never US.
That what i meaned, when i speaked about minorities.

I think, you completely misunderstand what i have told you (perhaps because of my bad english, though).
Otherwise, i dont understand, why are you saying me "fear not, we will help you".
Please, dont help us anymore, i beg you.
The last time you helped Ukraine, nationalists come to power.
At first they forbid translation films on russian in the cinema (except russian films, but they are shit, sad but true), and then dropped gdp on 15%.
Really, perhaps you try to bring democraty to the South Africa instead? They are living in so much shit, that even your democratisation activity will not give them too much new troubles.