Moammar al-Qadhafi = dead!

[burgingham]

I didn't say we should help you, you misunderstood me there. I wish some clear statements from the leaders of the western countries telling the world iand their people that Putin is a soulless dictator and not act like he is their best friend.

Democracy is nothing easy to achieve and is an ever evolving, ever to be fought for proccess. It is sometimes doomed to fail if it is brought to people who don't wnat it or better who are not ready for it. Because in any case it is preferable over the regimes people usually have to endure. It might take time for people to realize how important it is to take back the power over their own country.

The Russian people and to some extend its neighbours too seem to be a special case here and probably you are right that the US and the Europeans are somewhat guilty that you don't even want another regime. Not even with all those people suffering there under the power of a few rich criminals. I hope you and your people one day will realize by themselves that freedom from opression is something worth fighting for and that it doesn't need an opressive dictator to have a strong leadership over a country. Until then I probably cannot do much to change your opinion and as I said that probably partially is really the fault of the West (not alone though, that would be too easy of an explanation).

Don't fool yourself about the status quo in your region of the world though. I have good contacts there, contacts to what should be considered the elite of the country. Academics, doctors, teachers. You know what? They all live in deep poverty and fear. Yet you want to tell me everything is good there?

There is a heart surgeon for children. In Germany that guy would not only be incredibly rich like he deserves to be, because he went through one of the toughest schooling there is and now is using his skills to make sure our future is alive and healthy. He would also have the best possible reputation and every single woman would want to marry him. In Russia this guy has to work a nightjob because he cannot pay the rent for his appartment, a very small appartment.

There is the vice-police chief of a somewhat bigger town. He is earning 300€ a month. His normal street working colleagues are getting half of that. The smallest appartments cost around 200€. How you ask they earn the mones to survive? Corruption it is! Intended by Putin? Oh, I think he is smart enough to know what it means to keep the payment of his own policeforce low enough to enforce corruption.

He is doing it for his buddies. The rich guys, the businessmen he didn't throw into prison. The ones obeying him.

There are the normal teachers. The ones responsible for the education of (y)our future generations. They don't even earn what the normal poilceman gets and opposed to him they have nobody offering them a bribe.

For these pseudo-arguments à la "But the social system was good". Just one sentence: In Germany it is usually right-wing party propaganda to say that Hitler did build roads and offered a lot of people jobs. This is considered such an ridiculous argument that it became a running gag in Germany. I guess none of you would try to argue Hitler was a great man only because he helped people find work. That is a ridiculous and simplified view one might even be inclined to argue that it has been simplified on purpose. Don't really have to say much else about such nonsense as Iraq had a stable social system, Ghaddafi helped people to get work...

Edit: South Africa is a democracy and considerably rich for average african conditions. Of course still high crime rates, a lot of poverty, still racism. But it is really not the best example out there to pick. Any other africna country would have done a better job to help your argument.

[cauda_draconis]

I didn't say we should help you, you misunderstood me there. I wish some clear statements from the leaders of the western countries telling the world iand their people that Putin is a soulless dictator and not act like he is their best friend.

I think that would be nice experiment of raising Putin's rating. Everyone here knows, that such statements usually means beginning of the program "oil for democracy"
Sometimes i even think, that Putin is american mole. When his rating drops a bit, US try to move missile defence more close to the Russia's border, and his rating immadiately raises.
So, Europe are always welcomed to help him too

I hope you and your people one day will realize by themselves that freedom from opression is something worth fighting for and that it doesn't need an opressive dictator to have a strong leadership over a country. Until then I probably cannot do much to change your opinion and as I said that probably partially is really the fault of the West (not alone though, that would be too easy of an explanation).

What you talking about is the absence of civil society. Yes, that's true, but you could bomb dictators every day, forse them to make clearest election in the world - and that brings you not even on a pace closer to that goal.
From what i see, civil society is fastly developing, and i even will not be surprised, if Putin himself will make reforms on this way - he is quite experienced politic, to sense current political conjuncture

Yet you want to tell me everything is good there?

Oh, you. Where did i tell something like that? But still:

There is a heart surgeon for children. In Germany that guy would not only be incredibly rich like he deserves to be, because he went through one of the toughest schooling there is and now is using his skills to make sure our future is alive and healthy. He would also have the best possible reputation and every single woman would want to marry him. In Russia this guy has to work a nightjob because he cannot pay the rent for his appartment, a very small appartment.

i'm more then assured, that guy exaggerates something. Perhaps he have small appartments on Rublyovka?

Also, i dont know, why do you tell me about corruption. Of course i know sizes of the corruption. But if you thing, that making election most honest removes corruption - you are highly mistaken; my country is the good example of that.

For these pseudo-arguments à la "But the social system was good". Just one sentence: In Germany it is usually right-wing party propaganda to say that Hitler did build roads and offered a lot of people jobs. This is considered such an ridiculous argument that it became a running gag in Germany. I guess none of you would try to argue Hitler was a great man only because he helped people find work. That is a ridiculous and simplified view one might even be inclined to argue that it has been simplified on purpose. Don't really have to say much else about such nonsense as Iraq had a stable social system, Ghaddafi helped people to get work...

I could tell you a little secret - i have seated on Krautchan for a year (if you are familiar with german imageboards), so i know this and much more other german jokes. If i sometimes need to translate this one on Russian, i will do it like "But the democracy was good", describing early 90s. That will makes the same sense.

Edit: South Africa is a democracy and considerably rich for average african conditions. Of course still high crime rates, a lot of poverty, still racism. But it is really not the best example out there to pick. Any other africna country would have done a better job to help your argument.

Actually I meaned sub-saharan africa, not the exact country.

[burgingham]

Well, I guess in some cases here we just have to agree to disagree I guess.

I know Ukraine wasn't the best example for bringing democracy to another country and I am not a friend of forcing it on others anyway. It has to develop by itself and if the West should help even with the development of the proper conscience is highly questionable. So we don't have such different opinions here I think.

My numbers on the wages etc in Russia are quite correct though and I brought corruption into it because the government implanted it by choice into their own system. Now it leads to many innocent people sitting in jail. Journalists, authors, businessmen. A regime that does this is never desirable no matter which names it chooses as its own labels.

[cauda_draconis]

Journalists, authors

Could you be more specific, please?
Btw, my girlfriend is from Saint Petersburg, so i know the wages too.

[Tonkyhonk]

well, cauda, believe or not, i lived in one of those countries in the early-med 90s for a couple of years.
and i must say, i met many people like you there, whining all the time, missing only the goods, forgetting the bads, blaming others. those who worked hard to survive and wish for the better were too busy to sit and stay bitching about the state they were in. they were always talking about how to make the current situation better, not to whine and blame others.

on the other hand, there had also been many who were too excited about the new system, too optimisic about what democracy could offer and what the old systems had done to the society, always talking about something too fancy and dreamy with "if". im sure quite a few were disappointed at the first outcome, rushing for the smooth results, to end up bitching after all.

many of you look up at birds in the sky wishing you were one of those flying, yet you ignore their chick days training to fly and cry out why you cannot fly immediately when you see wings attached to your back, and blame the wings.

nobody is saying the new systems those developed countries brought are perfect. if there were such a perfect system existing, everyone could be happy in the whole universe. you know every developed country also has ones own problems, dont ya? there are always clever people who have to abuse systems and get in the way of "good will" of others.

human rights are not there for us to swear at the visibles.
democracy does not exist there to abuse the minorities.
some of the weakest cannot get busy working even if they want to, sure, that is where "human rights" come in.
lots of people still fight for the rights all over the world, no matter where you live.
you just dont sit back and stare at the others doing stuff and whine, that is no democracy.
payment for freedom is responsibilities and efforts.
i understand that some people would rather have dictators to rule all to free them from responsibilities and efforts.


im not familiar enough with events and politics in arabic and african countries to talk here, so ill shut about the topic itself.

[Voxpopulos]

With people being tortured and killed. There is nothing social about that, not even when a single person has to suffer for the others health. The human rights are something universal and not something western specific.

Also most revolutions in the arabic states were driven by the people (the initial drive in Libya too). You conveniently just leave that out of your argument.

There is a difference, yes. Especially the russian mentality has to change here and get its own phase of enlightenment I fear. Over the last months I have gained a pretty deep insight into this mentality and into the horrible situation your country is in. Corruption, hunger, unemployment, even police torture and now Putin is wrapping up his little game for power by becoming the next Stalin and the Russians are applauding their strong man. Even the Arabs have realized by now that democracy is the way out of physical opression, out of corruption etc. Nobody is arguing here that the western democracies are anywhere near perfect, but they damn well beat any of these authoritarian countries, where people still have to endure physical brutality and the opression of an independent mind.

Wtf man, now color of your nickname represents you better. You're not only green, but also, fat.

[burgingham]

Journalists, authors

Could you be more specific, please?
Btw, my girlfriend is from Saint Petersburg, so i know the wages too.

I am not talking about the Moscow or St. Petersburg regions. They keep those well polished and shiny to make the rest of the world think this is what Russia looks like while the rest of the country is bitterly poor.

[cauda_draconis]

well, cauda, believe or not, i lived in one of those countries in the early-med 90s for a couple of years.
and i must say, i met many people like you there, whining all the time, missing only the goods, forgetting the bads, blaming others. those who worked hard to survive and wish for the better were too busy to sit and stay bitching about the state they were in. they were always talking about how to make the current situation better, not to whine and blame others.

Lol, i was sure, that all that will come to "you are loser, who just cant earn some money that days".
I could tell you for sure, that there was 2 ways of "working hard to survive" - making business, and kicking the shit from business. Pity, i could not choose any, cause i was only schoolboy that days, and spend my time fucking the school, reading Castaneda and eating funny pills to be more funny guy ^^ But i hope the more grown up guys (age 50+) followed your advices - taked crowbar, went to the nearest stall, and say them: "from now, i'm your protector, so when your usual guys come to take fee, say them, that i'll beat their asses, if they would not go away".

many of you look up at birds in the sky wishing you were one of those flying, yet you ignore their chick days training to fly and cry out why you cannot fly immediately when you see wings attached to your back, and blame the wings.

Why do you think, i blaming the wings? You use them, and it seems they work fine for you.
I blaming the guys, who striked me with the crowbar, released from all possession, and then give some wings and fucking lecturing me about how i unable to use those fucken wings?

democracy does not exist there to abuse the minorities.

But are the guys, who have monopoly on spreading it.

lots of people still fight for the rights all over the world, no matter where you live.

And some of them even fighting for their rights with usa and west world, could you imagine?

payment for freedom is responsibilities and efforts.

Ok, could you please stop puting it in my pocket, like dynamite in the Fallout, to just say that since i have it now, then i must pay for it?

[Tonkyhonk]

why and what kind of advice could i give to them, or even to you here?
you seem to have this inferior complex that all people except you are trying to push you with some advice?
im only sharing my point of view, cause you seem to have thought none of us have been there in those days, and talked as if you were a representative of the whole ex-USSR.
i had learned a lot from them, including their language and culture. and i wanted to say that there were many of those like you, and there were many of those UNLIKE you as well.
at that time, all i could do was to share my knowledge of my own tongue and culture and be friends, and im pretty sure that is all they wanted from me, though there were some retards expecting me to pull money from my country for bribes. (and we have all the corrupt retards too.)
they all had their prides of who they had been. why would i bother trying to tell them something when i cant even explain what i had in mind in their language, especially to the older guys? even if i could, would it have changed anything? lol
i only heard, listened, saw, witnessed, watched and pondered. (i did have some good discussions with a few young ones who understood english though.)

and i quite dont understand what you are trying to say with this crowbar thing and these two lines, probably my side.

But are the guys, who have monopoly on spreading it.

And some of them even fighting for their rights with usa and west world, could you imagine?

for the last line, that is exactly my point. you want dictators, right? but there are some of you who dont, as well.

[cauda_draconis]

Ok, Tonky, i writed a long roll of text, about "HOW BAD WERE THAT TIMES", but then deleted that. That's not because the lack of arguments - I just do not want to even remember some shit.

But didnt you forget the topic of discussion? We talked about standards of living. So

i had learned a lot from them, including their language and culture. and i wanted to say that there were many of those like you, and there were many of those UNLIKE you as well.

those guys have the possibility to live, say, in Lybia, on the 50$ in a day, with free halthcare, but said: "no, we dont love that totalitarian Lybia, so we better stay here, in the free country, and will live on a 1$ in a day, with crimes and corruption"?

So how many such guys did you know?

and i quite dont understand what you are trying to say with this crowbar thing and these two lines, probably my side.

I mean, that perhaps "ideal spherical democracy in vacuum" does not abuse the minorities, but in our imperfect world, created by evil demiurg, west world uses "violation rights of minorities" only to start war, and when the friends of west world are, in their turn, violates the rights of their oun minorities - west world pretends that nothing happening at all.