H&H LP Economics - After the Death of Bourgeoisie

[DatOneGuy]

I like floating caps. I hate hard caps.

There are some effective hard caps or were.
In essence from what I get so far in W5 from playing:
UA - Floating cap based on other players = Uncapped
MC - Floating cap based on other players = Uncapped
Marksmanship - Floating cap based on highest q wood = Gradually increasing cap, essentially hardcaps when trees plateau, generally this happens often around 160+, good luck ever pushing trees to 190+. = Floating->Hard Cap
Exploration - Cap at around 10k for foraging, floating on other players = Hard Cap ; There's a work around for stealth
Stealth - No cap = Uncapped
Sewing - Cap based on farming/other stuff;floating = Gradually increasing cap
Smithing - Based on highest metal and clay, once highest clay is found hard = Hard cap
Carpentry - Based on highest wood, eventually plateaus =Floating->Hard Cap (You'll pretty much never get past q200 trees until your cows break q200 bones and your survival is past it, or in the case of troll bones maybe a bit higher like 300, the floating point should pretty much reach an asymptote around bone q but then pass it with luck)
Cooking - Based on farming = Gradually Increasing
Farming - Keeps going albeit slower than w3 = Gradually increasing
Survival - Capped with bones mostly, never going to need past a certain point (Troll bones I assume) =Hard Cap

I consider a hard cap anything where you can't get past a certain point of use no matter what at the current moment (or well over a year's worth of worth to past the hard cap), a floating cap raises and decreases based on village, floating->hard is where you go through stages but have an end hard cap you won't get used pass.
UA - Uncapped
MC - Uncapped
MM - 300~500
Exploration - 10k (Uncapped for players)
Stealth - Uncapped
Sewing - Gradual
Smithing - Hard Cap (100~200)
Carpentry - Floating->Hard (200~ ; Bone Q)
Cooking - Gradual (Uncapped)
Farming - Gradual (Uncapped)
Survival - 500~ (Bone Q)

Essentially most things are capped, the only things uncapped are UA, MC, EXP and Stealth. Everything else has a cap for a certain period of time. Cooking and farming may gradually increase but they are capped wherein you'll only need to spend a little more each harvest to go a little farther.
UA is effectively capped against animals with that new combat change I believe (400 or 2,000 UA won't matter against Mr. Bear), MC probably about the same, so it's just about versus others. Stealth while it seems useless gets beefy at higher levels, if you have a guy with 200k stealth it'll take a guy with 100k stealth too long to ever be able to see your scents, I've tried it before. Once he has 130k though he can see them within a few tries.

[Tonkyhonk]

thanks all again for more inputs.

vsbryd,

interesting.
maybe the joy of raising q has lots to do with being a farmer? (and im a farmer myself)
i mean, on w3, it wasnt so hard to raise quality of crops compared to w4 and w5 (depending on soil though)
so could it be like, diligent farmers, possibly with support from other villagers on w5 for curios, can continue concentrating on raising q, while some others like not-too-willing-farmers or easy-to-go-lazy farmers are having trouble seeing the joy?


-as for combat caps-

i havent finished reading the thread yet, and id better finish it before saying anything in details i guess.
but so far, i do understand the reason why many people support that idea, along with the armours stats fix.
there is one thing in my mind atm if that is implemented; where do players allocate the excess lp if combats are also capped? bigger pclaims all over maps? or will that lead to "stealth vs explore" battle of scents being visible or not? (since we dont have XMPP notifications any more, it does mean something.)
the most importantly, i ask myself, how does such caps influence the players' motivation? you have loads of lp at hand which is less effectively spent on, compared to before. those with stiff motivations (politics, village relations, battles, friendship and such) might not have much problems with it though.
(i hope it will be answered as i finish reading that thread.)


DatOneGuy,

thanks for explanation on floating caps, that is very handy for me to grasp the idea better too.
i had heard that survival was always capped at 200. but 500, so, thats because troll bones quality go that high?

[DatOneGuy]

thanks all again for more inputs.

vsbryd,

interesting.
maybe the joy of raising q has lots to do with being a farmer? (and im a farmer myself)
i mean, on w3, it wasnt so hard to raise quality of crops compared to w4 and w5 (depending on soil though)
so could it be like, diligent farmers, possibly with support from other villagers on w5 for curios, can continue concentrating on raising q, while some others like not-too-willing-farmers or easy-to-go-lazy farmers are having trouble seeing the joy?


-as for combat caps-

i havent finished reading the thread yet, and id better finish it before saying anything in details i guess.
but so far, i do understand the reason why many people support that idea, along with the armours stats fix.
there is one thing in my mind atm if that is implemented; where do players allocate the excess lp if combats are also capped? bigger pclaims all over maps? or will that lead to "stealth vs explore" battle of scents being visible or not? (since we dont have XMPP notifications any more, it does mean something.)
the most importantly, i ask myself, how does such caps influence the players' motivation? you have loads of lp at hand which is less effectively spent on, compared to before. those with stiff motivations (politics, village relations, battles, friendship and such) might not have much problems with it though.
(i hope it will be answered as i finish reading that thread.)


DatOneGuy,

thanks for explanation on floating caps, that is very handy for me to grasp the idea better too.
i had heard that survival was always capped at 200. but 500, so, thats because troll bones quality go that high?

Farming -
Seems just as enjoyable, it's just everything is slower and there isn't that `sidegame` part of it where if someone dies you get to have fun using numen to raise crops.
Really farming now is just pretty straight forward, raise crops, process. There's nothing on the side except for a few curios like weird beetroot that I hear are huge (2x2) and probably not so great.

Combat caps -
I'm against it personally, I believe it should be grounded to some extent by your weapons so that 'village production' matters more in fighting. It shouldn't be a hard cap based on your weapon (making it a floating cap since it'll change with your weapon Q), but that your weapon Q should more severely ground the ability to continually raise it and notice anything.

Caps -
Nah, survival was capped at 200 because bear bones were 200. I have no idea the max quality of troll bones. I've heard anywhere from 300 to 450, but honestly have no idea, never run into one as I wasn't here, so I was shooting high.
With slings `nerfed` to require leather, slings won't be needing insane survival, I recall in W3 we had q500+ slings and thus very high survival characters as well.

[ysbryd]

Yea I'm mainly a farmer, but as I said, its a village of two people, and the task spread is basically he mines, I farm, and everything else is shared equally.
We have a floor of a mansion full of curios, both foraged and manufactured. We both basically do two trips a day to forage, and yes, its a populated area with other people foraging too, but its about putting the effort in.
Keep an eye on the time of day, dawn.. hit the swamps... dewy ladies mantle is pretty sweet, with royal toadstools, dragonflies and the occasional bluebell to boot.
Im also a hunter, I made my own q 90 bow and q 120 arrows, and can one shot a deer, or three shot a bear. No I admit I dont get out of the boat and thump them, I leave that to my village mate,I only get out when its already beaten, but bearskin means q 79 stuffed bears... another good curio.
I can make a damn good small abacus, ten minutes and I have q 40 prisms, I mean, I end up looking at 100,000 lp and wondering where to put it all.
All my stats are at a minimum of 100 this world, and yet I am doing what I want to do, when I want to do it, and this is my third char this world after being spawned next to Odditown

This is SO FAR above where I was at the end of world 4, and I'm doing what I want to, not dropping everything to go grind for some points.
I harvest my carrots because I want high q fodder for my cows, not for lp, the lp comes in the q60 jorbonzola which means I can stick more stuff in my head... win win situation for me..

[Tonkyhonk]

ive finally decided the direction for this thread.
if you would, please post how the current LP system is affecting your game play, e.g., your play style change, village management situation, your motivations, or anything at all significant you feel.


just finished reading the combat cap thread.
gimme a bit of time to reply to the above.

[Tonkyhonk]

(having a "Golden Holiday" at where i live makes it harder for me to stay at pc, sorry for taking long)

Farming -
Seems just as enjoyable, it's just everything is slower and there isn't that `sidegame` part of it where if someone dies you get to have fun using numen to raise crops.
Really farming now is just pretty straight forward, raise crops, process. There's nothing on the side except for a few curios like weird beetroot that I hear are huge (2x2) and probably not so great.

i dont know about others, but "sidegame" part of farming is rather its influence on all other activities. and many farming lovers still see its joy intact, while others -who used to farm for LP and/or for village task- may be having hard time coping with its simplicity as a menial routine chore.
it would be really nice though, if we could sometimes discover some wigglers to study (or to make some compost with) or maybe a "Charmed Worm" for fun (i hear there is a sport called worm charming in europe) or more lines of such accidental events, not just super-rare huge beetroots, for 'post-numen'.

Yea I'm mainly a farmer, but as I said, its a village of two people, and the task spread is basically he mines, I farm, and everything else is shared equally.

yes, i understand and thats what im up to as well, though im not sure if this is what i should be aiming for yet.
working with a couple trusting friends is much easier than dealing village chaos and it usually works fine with lots less troubles. moreover, the obvious responsibilities can keep your motivation up as well, while it lasts.
as in, workers' self-management with no boss works best on small scales, whether it lasts long enough or not.


re: combat caps
i did think about posting on the thread, but i decided not to since im a total noob on combat.
i havent had an opportunity to raise any of my combat stats so high yet, nor i had any good combat experiences to be able to speak with my own words.
one of the mentioned concern of mine, as to where to put the excess LP, is not answered in the thread, but seems like it is of course noticed and left for devs to consider. (its not like suggesting everything in detail is any good for devs creative development works, sometimes it may get in their ways and disturb their creativity. burg has thrown a vague concept of putting lp in some village business to hint enough, i guess.)
still, "motivation" part seems to be taken less seriously in that thread.

after all, combat caps sound like, at least to me, a government measure taken in social liberalism.
not saying its good or bad, of course. and i think pros and cons can discuss a bit more on the subject.

[MagicManICT]

( if we could sometimes discover some wigglers to study (or to make some compost with) or maybe a "Charmed Worm" for fun (i hear there is a sport called worm charming in europe)

This would be nice. As much as I want to see the quality of my crops go up, it's offset by the burden of not wanting to waste anything.

I've heard it called "Worm gruntin'"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TkfyL22Ysmg

[Tonkyhonk]

I've heard it called "Worm gruntin'"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TkfyL22Ysmg

wow nice...
you know what i love about online games? i can deal with worms without touching them lol
thanks for the link!

[MagicManICT]

Still a bit OT:

I first heard about a year or two ago on Dirty Jobs on Discovery Channel. Not quite as effective as a battery grounded out in wet ground, though.

[Markoff_Chaney]

the previous LP system = capitalism?
--- the more you play(work), the more LP(capital) you gain.
the current LP system = anti-capitalism?
--- no matter how long you play(work), you gain the same LP. there are methods to increase the gain, but when you belong to a well-established village, playing time hardly matters and everyone can be equal.

I do think that it's worthwhile to analyze HnH in economic terms. The game has virtual items which people value, and people trade and barter to obtain them. That's an economy. But before I address your comments, I would like to add a caveat against defining this virtual economy based on the real world economy. HnH is not the real world. It does not function in the same way. That said, here we go:

The old LP system was based on labor. If you performed a certain task, you'd receive a certain amount of LP. The reward's amount was hardcoded into the game and was nontransferable. Basically, the workers owned the means of LP production and there was no LP-based currency. This would appear to be analogous to the labor theory of value. This is the (*cough* discredited *cough*) theory that forms the operating framework for Marxists and several other varieties of collectivist.

The new LP system is based on capital. You can only gain LP if you possess curiosities (capital goods). And you can trade curiosities. Their prices are based (roughly) on supply and demand. This is analogous to the marginal theory of value. I would regard this as a more capitalist system.