Combat and PVP

[bmjclark]

You can beat a lot of people with higher stats then u just by using some of the more obscure moves a lot of people don't seem to understand =p. As for your original question about it being skill or stat based, i'd say both. You obviously have a lot better chance against some one who has half your UA, but that doesn't mean you can't beat someone who has twice your's if you know what you're doing.

[burgingham]

snip

You seem to usually do quite ok analyzes of the game, but here you are plain wrong. Why do you think most players don't bother anymore to raise one combat titan and instead go for a couple of combat alts with medium stats? Because skill is heavily involved in combat. Not only for the choice of moves itself which is a really complicated metagame that goes back and forth. But also the famous movement combat which basically nullifies any stats your opponents has and you will KO a runnin target in 1 sting no matter if it has 1000 or 10 melee.

Combat is actually one of the very good mechanics of this game or why else do you think PvP groups like the Ainran guys around NaoWhut and Valten (and yes, NNN too ^^) are still in this game? They have fun experimenting with a very sophisticated system which leaves tons of opportunities to explore. Combat in this game is very complicated and one might argue that it is a bad thing (in my opinion it is not) and it might still favour stats a bit too heavy in a 1vs1 stand off where both opponents just stand still and exchange punches (then again the one who starts with the moving will probably win or at least get away with his life), but the general system and the existence of a metagame makes it very interesting.

coordinating people

Why is that a bad thing? Good coordination of armies should win battles and is essentially proving that in this system a group will always be able to overcome a single ubertoon as long as the group knows roughly what they are doing.

[Potjeh]

but that doesn't mean you can't beat someone who has twice your's if you know what you're doing.

Only if he doesn't know what's he doing.

Combat is actually one of the very good mechanics of this game

I wouldn't go so far as to call it "very good". The skeleton of the system is great, I'll give you that, but the implementation could use a fair deal of polish. There's too much good moves that rely on IP alone, and the moves that are a bit more difficult to pull off (ie also rely on advantage, attack/defence bars and intensity) aren't nearly as good as they should be, Sting Like a Bee notwithstanding. I mean, seriously, why is Push the Advantage so disappointing?

IMO the moves that require just one condition to be met (like specific number of IP) should be vastly inferior to moves that require almost all of the variables to be right.

[Horatius]

Why do you think most players don't bother anymore to raise one combat titan and instead go for a couple of combat alts with medium stats? Because skill is heavily involved in combat. Not only for the choice of moves itself which is a really complicated metagame that goes back and forth. But also the famous movement combat which basically nullifies any stats your opponents has and you will KO a runnin target in 1 sting no matter if it has 1000 or 10 melee.

It is true, I forgot about that tactic. I've never used it personally and therefore tend to reduce combat to a clash between two foes in close combat. I can say however that combat titans are running around despite the mobile combat thing. A friend got killed a while back by a group of russians of which one had at least 750 UA (or an equivalent melee value with a shield) or so.

I do not know whether this kind of combat is an intended feature or not but I'd wager to say it is not. Melee skills were probably never fully introduced considering that they only consist of attacks and one move. And even if this is intentional... should combat really be decided by who can refill his waterflask faster without running into an object and using skills at the at the right time after thundering the other guy for ages? I guess you could call that what is commonly titled as "skill" in other games but it doesn't exactly feel right.

Combat is actually one of the very good mechanics of this game or why else do you think PvP groups like the Ainran guys around NaoWhut and Valten (and yes, NNN too ^^) are still in this game? They have fun experimenting with a very sophisticated system which leaves tons of opportunities to explore.

The problem of this is that your average Hearthling becomes the plaything of those people. 90 % of the players always live in terror and fear of getting raped by the experienced and organized forces (overdramatizised of course but it's true to a certain extent imho). Combat would have to be more common in this game to make it worthwhile for everyone and not just for a small group of elites.

A lot of players don't bother with fighting because they know their stats suck and they feel it's complicated to get into. And frankly, many just don't want to fight either. A lot are content by simply doing farmwork or hunting and contributing to a community. I often find it difficult to train people in self-defense because they do not want to spar.
If combat stays the way it works these days, then there should at least be some kind of option to join a greater nation that can offer protection in return for something else. It doesn't seem to work out naturally so I guess it would require some sort of game mechanic for this to function.

coordinating people

Why is that a bad thing? Good coordination of armies should win battles and is essentially proving that in this system a group will always be able to overcome a single ubertoon as long as the group knows roughly what they are doing.

Just my personal preference. I don't like to hang around in a voice tool channel all the time while playing. Since this offers advantages it becomes more or less necessary for anyone who wants to be successful in combat. Of course that's not just a problem in HnH. Voice tools have unfortunately become a requirement for success in many games. For me it chips away at a relaxing gameplay.

[burgingham]

The problem of this is that your average Hearthling becomes the plaything of those people. 90 % of the players always live in terror and fear of getting raped by the experienced and organized forces (overdramatizised of course but it's true to a certain extent imho). Combat would have to be more common in this game to make it worthwhile for everyone and not just for a small group of elites.

A lot of players don't bother with fighting because they know their stats suck and they feel it's complicated to get into. And frankly, many just don't want to fight either. A lot are content by simply doing farmwork or hunting and contributing to a community. I often find it difficult to train people in self-defense because they do not want to spar.
If combat stays the way it works these days, then there should at least be some kind of option to join a greater nation that can offer protection in return for something else. It doesn't seem to work out naturally so I guess it would require some sort of game mechanic for this to function.

Excuse me, but this is their problem then. They do have the chance to learn combat and to catch up. Those people who know how to fight didn't get some divine intuition either and suddenly knew how to do it. It is about testing, testing, testing.

Also, HnH is so many things...but not relaxing At least not in a conventional way. No other game is able to make the adrenaline pump like this one can. So they must have done something right. The constant fear, paranoia, excitement is what makes the game great.

[Whippet]

What sort of stats do you guys think ought to be had before attempting to stand up against the run-of-the-mill griefer? What about the big shot griefers like NaoWhut / ElGato? (though I will not have the skill or gear to go along with any such stats to actually harm either of them any time soon)
I would most likely be trying to obtain such stats without the help of a village, thus is it even feasible to try?

[dagrimreefah]

The constant fear, paranoia, excitement is what makes the game great.

Agreed.

What sort of stats do you guys think ought to be had before attempting to stand up against the run-of-the-mill griefer? What about the big shot griefers like NaoWhut / ElGato? (though I will not have the skill or gear to go along with any such stats to actually harm either of them any time soon)
I would most likely be trying to obtain such stats without the help of a village, thus is it even feasible to try?

Against griefers: ~150 UA or melee or both
Against big griefers: ~500-1000

My best estimates, anyway :s

For the last question: yes. The farther you go and the more things you discover, the better the curios (and the quality of curios) you'll make. It takes patience, but it is definitely achievable.

[Valten21]

I've been fighting with 300 UA, or 300 MC for months now. That being said, I have been able to beat 1 v 1 people with greater UA then mine, also, I've been experimenting with MC vs UA tactics, and with the recent punch nerf it is fairly viable. I am not left feeling it's been introduced with out being completley implemented.

In short, - In short, combat in this game sucks big time - in my opinion at least. It's all about stats, coordinating people and broken game mechanics.

I disagree with this, the combat is my favorite and possibly only reason I play this game, it's all about theory crafting and testing new stat's, coordinating these plans with your people, and experimenting with game mechanics. Countless times in the past month or so I've pm'd burg starting with.. "oh, we've experimented with this new tactic, goes like....". Like he said, it's a fast moving metagame.

[NaoWhut]

Oh wow, a thread on PvP i totally missed o.O

i'd say about 400 MC/ 500 UA would be required
to be able to stand up to fighters that aren't
actually handing you the lube and facing the
other way

if you know how to fight though, that's pretty
much 300/300 easy and you'll hold your own just
fine vs a 700 guy if you're good enough

[Mopstar]

When people get desprete in combat you can see a lot of strange things happen.Also A lot of people panic once their defense bar is gone so 2 no pain no gains and a punch or 2 thrown in and people just seem to lose it completely and start fleeing.

Of course this can come back and bite you in the ass if the player is decent and takes advantage of your very low shp left.