Skype conferences?

[Eemerald]

Provide me a real world example of this "public negotiation" you talk about?

Ive done initial trades and links on public forums. We've also had negotiations for future trade hubs in leadership chat and various ither discussions which would involve a host of people. Its just an initial way to talk, make contacts, discyss ideas, build alliances, etc etc.

For the OP theres a couple of conferences and the more u get to know people, the more u'll be added to... Most arent productive but theyre good for links and general chatter.
Anyone can add u to them if u ask in leadership chat and add them to contacts.

[Dorky]

Provide me a real world example of this "public negotiation" you talk about?

Pictures for the feeble-minded and links for the investigative.

That's a pretty horrible way to bring your point across. I could take your post and do this to it...

The Russian Duma (too bad I don't have a link but I'm sure they have a website that explains the benefits of this institution to the public too)

Those people conduct deals, reach agreements, announce problems, work towards solutions, sign treaties, declare war.

Privately, they may backstab, extort, be bribed, philander, they shit-talk each other (sometimes publicly).

But in those places, things have a tendency to get done.

Does it not look silly now? Looks sort of public too, right?
Publicity on pictures can easily be misleading and proves nothing.

It's also arrogant to post pictures for "the feeble-minded" and claim that an "investigative mind" will find all the information he needs on the official websites that you posted. Investigation and trust have a tendency to not go well along with each other.

[TokyoShovel]

FFDreke: Thank you, you put it exactly the way I was thinking but couldn't quantify in words. (In text anyways)

[Vaku]

Dorky, take a look below, at that quote. This is to what I responded to, TokyoShovel's discounting that there's first an insurmountable randomness to an HnH conference.

I am sorry for not being very clear.

I am currently a member of Leaders conference, but I was hoping to find active conferences discussing treaty negotiations, live trade conferences to get up to date supply/demand, ect. I am surprised at the lack of communication I have been able to find that is discussing "Official" business.

Why would anyone do "official" business in a conference filled with random people. Business is done one on one or in conferences with people you trust and who trust you. Anything else is pure foolishness.

I reply saying, there is no true randomness. That it's all very predictable that we're in such conferences because we play HnH.

What I wrote verbatim is right here.

TokyoShovel responds with a semi-incoherent jab, wrongfully assuming that to discuss things publicly is to blindly trust.

Well, if you don't consider the people in say, the "Leadership Conference" random and you trust all of them, by all means, do your business in there. Also: Be waiting to be raided.

He assumes strangely that to discuss public plans with public entities, as with the Leadership Conference is the most assured way to get raided. He goes on to add backstabbing in the list of negatives, which I say can happen anywhere so long as someone betrays your trust.

I then challenge him to clarify how he believes public negotiation leads to raiding and backstabbing, here.

I'm then asked by magic to give a real world example to public negotiation.

I oblige, giving a tip of the iceberg lesson on what I know very well, the U.S. government and how that translates to even world politics.

Now, I can only suspect that you posted a picture of the Russsian Duma, because you don't really understand your own government. What you showed is yet another political institution where people talk and get things done, for better or worse on your end. As an aside to this point, I don't agree with some recent Russian legislation, does that not mean that they do not discuss it among themselves?

Politics anywhere in the world does not have to occur in the People's view, as it does in the U.S. if you just change the channel to one of the C-Span listings. That's a link to the live video. Right now as I post this, there's a town hall meeting. In the U.S. you even have the opportunity to go and sit in and view Senate or the House in work. It's a very open institution that serves over 300 million people.

So let's talk about that number. It's important because it seems to have distorted the picture for some of you, since with greater populations, governing takes on more institutions to work fluidly. FFDreke seems to think that there is no such parallel conceivable between politics in HnH and corporeal politics we've got in our capitals, though more importantly in Human past. There is a terrible disconnect with reality if you think yourself as a human don't have the capacity to achieve/emulate/build upon what humans have already done.

He seems to ignore the bloodstained days of the Medieval Ages, even more dangerously the iron-fist of the Slave-State of Rome when it was at its peak. He seems to also ignore even before all that, the Chiefdoms found specked throughout the world during the Iron Age and how awfully paralleled that all is to the HnH we play today.

Governance takes on many forms, but it's always a public matter. You've a grave misunderstanding of the world you live in today if you think you're out of the loop.

So now, I ask TokyoShovel, if you could use your own words and explain how it is inherent that a conference leads to raiding and backstabbing, I think we could all learn a little more.

[TokyoShovel]

I'm going to do you one better. I have to go do real world bullshit like grocery shopping and what have you but in about 3 hours when I return, I'm going to start a skype conference just as an experiment and to prove you wrong. Everyone from here on the forums will be invited and we will all discuss affairs of state insofar as such things exist in Haven. We will discuss trade treaties, military treaties etc etc then we will come back to this thread in say...two weeks? And I'll provide ample proof that these free and open discussions of state have led to multiple instances of raiding, murdering and various other forms of fuckery. Fair enough?

[Vaku]

I'm going to do you one better. I have to go do real world bullshit like grocery shopping and what have you but in about 3 hours when I return, I'm going to start a skype conference just as an experiment and to prove you wrong. Everyone from here on the forums will be invited and we will all discuss affairs of state insofar as such things exist in Haven. We will discuss trade treaties, military treaties etc etc then we will come back to this thread in say...two weeks? And I'll provide ample proof that these free and open discussions of state have led to multiple instances of raiding, murdering and various other forms of fuckery. Fair enough?

That's not one better, it's actually worse because you're avoiding what I asked of you. If you cannot validate what you so confidently asserted, don't bother asserting it at all. I'm accepting that there could be merit to what you're saying, and I want you to provide an example, because I know you wouldn't just lie for lying's sake.

Moreover, public discourse does not predicate agreement. If you invite people who have a history of disliking each other, without the intent to get them to make amends, they're going to keep on disliking each other, and the setting would not matter at all, conference or not.

Another problem with the intrepid experiment is that it cannot use us as participants. It would muddle the test as it would be subject to us contriving a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Your best chance at validating what you claim is going to be through explaining established examples in your own words. If you're going to do an experiment, it has to properly formed with verified testing techniques, not this impromptu "I'll show you!" challenge.

[Dorky]

Now, I can only suspect that you posted a picture of the Russsian Duma, because you don't really understand your own government. What you showed is yet another political institution where people talk and get things done, for better or worse on your end.

I'm aware that the parliament serves a function of addressing problems and solving them to keep the society going. The exact workings differ from country to country. Mine is closer to the US. Public involvement here is limited to the election of this national parliament (as well as parliaments on lower levels and community administrations).

You argue from a very theoretical point of view (speaking about political necessities to keep a society going and a terrible past that has finally been overcome) whilst leaving out experiences from the daily life. But for the average citizen it is mostly the news that shape his opinions on political matters since he has no direct involvement in them. And what I get to read is usually not very charming. Such negative news involve bribery, parliamentarians hiring their own family, important politicians switching jobs to work for a company they hold close connections to, giant prestigeous building projects that never get finished and waste shitloads of public money, and so on. You can turn these things down as irrelevant and part of the daily political struggle but it leaves stains on the political class as a whole that cannot be cleaned out again so easily. Furthermore it sometimes gives you some insight on the political intrigues that occur within and between parties. Something you seem to rule out completely as well. For you it is always the best argument that wins in a completely honest discussion where every participant is only interested in speaking truth.
It is also the lack of communications that our politicians here demonstrate. I don't want to be filled up with statements that hold no content (only because they fear speaking their mind once could be their downfall). They do not seem to want to convince me of their cause.
Maybe things in the US are different though.

What most people in this thread complain about is that politics don't necessarily produce good results because we are all too human and interests (in this sense also institutions or institutional frames) develop a dynamic of their own. And that goes for those who make it to the top of public decision-making probably a lot more so. It makes us pessimistic and uncaring where you are unshakenly optimistic and idealistic.

I do not want to overly complain though. What people work in the parliaments every day probably deserves some more recognition. Life is not so bad but politics are just not as pure and holy as you make them out to be.

As an aside to this point, I don't agree with some recent Russian legislation, does that not mean that they do not discuss it among themselves?

It is not so much about different values. It is more about whether you actually believe the Duma is independant or not. I doubt either of us can know for sure but from what I picked up in the media there is reason enough to question that. If it is not, is everything still in order for you? Society keeps going because they make decisions and prepare laws after all.

[Vaku]

I've given you less credit than you deserve, Dorky, with my harsh statement.

I would like address this comment,

What most people in this thread complain about is that politics don't necessarily produce good results because we are all too human and interests develop a dynamic of their own. And that goes for those who make it to the top of public decision-making probably a lot more so. It makes us pessimistic and uncaring where you are unshakenly optimistic and idealistic.

I do feel that I have a more gung ho attitude when it comes to helping others through law an order. But I'm not so naive that I don't weigh both sides. In the quote below, I addressed some of the blatant good and bad.

Those people conduct deals, reach agreements, announce problems, work towards solutions, sign treaties, declare war.

Privately, they may backstab, extort, be bribed, philander, they shit-talk each other (sometimes publicly).

I also don't stop there, I try in my own little way to encourage people to do something, anything! that has the potential to bring law and social contracts into place, because I know, once those become manifested in game, people will work within those mediums to achieve greater things.

Yes there's a chance that things will fall apart, and there will always be people at the boundaries trying to pick lawful entities apart, but it's a journey and a challenge that this game is a medium for tackling.

I know that over the next day or more I'll keep going back to your post and reading it over to make sure I understand everything you're getting at. Don't expect a public follow-up though, I'm afraid we've already split to an off-topic discussion and are encouraging a depth of conversation not meant for this thread.

[TokyoShovel]

That's not one better, it's actually worse because you're avoiding what I asked of you.

Well there's where you got confused, I'm not here to answer your questions. I answered/commented on the OP and you started blathering and throwing about your unformed opinions that have been shot down by everyone in this thread because they, unlike yourself, understand that Haven & Hearth is not only NOT real life but bears very little similarity to it. You can throw up all the "real world" eveidence you want but it's never going to bear much if any light on Haven. I've offered you an oppertunity to prove yourself correct and myself wrong but you'd rather argue semantics so yeah...I'll just sit back and watch people who understand this game make a mockery of your confusion..... Good luck in the hearthlands though, you're gonna need it. :: Snicker ::