Excellent Job Goons

[loftar]

Gaiadin PM:ed me on the issue as well, so I guess I may just as well post publicly what I replied with (slightly edited for the greater audience).

I don't think it is quite right to say that we "endorse" the goons. Rather, we don't endorse anyone, and neither do we condemn anyone, and that is the way it necessarily must be. If we will be having to police player actions, the game will certainly not get past alpha ever, because:
* We don't have the time for such things;
* Time aside, such arbitrary restriction of player action would go too far against both the spirit and the purpose of the game; and
* Being a player babysitter would probably be among the most boring and unfulfulling tasks I could ever think of. If I'd have to do that, I'd rather stop developing altogether. The post-Wayneville clean-up is one of the most mind-numbingly counter-productive things I've ever done.

Further, and this is the important part, players like the goons will always exist; we cannot do anything about their existence, and, as concluded, we neither can nor want to police their actions. If their actions have to be dealt with somehow (which may well be true, if they cause the game to be boring), then we must, therefore, devise systematic prevention of their actions, viz., develop the mechanics of the game itself to discourage such action. Doing that is half of the point of the open alpha. I realize, of course, that letting them roam free will frustrate people, and if it causes good people to quit playing, I do feel that it is a shame; but the only way to learn how to deal with it is to let it happen, study it and then discuss it. I'm sure that everyone can agree that there is no real alternative.

We are well aware that there are many such fixes that are rather acute (among the greatest problems right now is that people who are offline cannot do anything at all to protect their property, and that combat is too unbalanced), but do mind that the game has gotten a lot better at handling various things since we started getting players back in May. It is frustrating for everyone involved, of course, that it takes so long real time to get these overarching issues fixed, but Jorb and I do, after all, have limited time to put into Haven (which is a shame, really; I'd love nothing more than getting to work full-time on it).

Delamore is lying through his teeth about those stats. :) I've been trying not to tell anyone that, but since he keeps telling everyone that he's got exploited stats that we don't correct, it cannot really be helped that I have to deny it at some point. I have taken for granted not to take a word of what he says at face value. Delamore is a grand master at manipulation of public opinion. :)

As for getting coordinates of certain places, I'm already planning a fix designed to make it severely harder (in most cases impossible) to use them.

To be honest, I also feel, sometimes, that people are expecting far too much at this point. There's a reason we call this stage of development "alpha" rather than "beta" (and unfortunately, I've seen people downplay that a lot in the recruitment threads I've seen on various forums): We're still evaluating many of the core elements (such as the LP system, skill system, stats, the entire combat system, but many more apart from them), some of which we already intend to rip out completely and replace (most importantly the LP system); and there are also quite a number of core systems missing or in what I'd call very early phases of development. There's no way the game could be balanced yet given those premises. When we started getting players back in May, none of us would have ever expected so many to come, and we didn't really expect anyone to stay for more than a few days. The very fact that some people have remained since then is something that strikes me as almost miraculous from time to time. It is of course a very great thing for us, since it allows us to study the aggregate phenomena that emerge in much greater detail than would otherwise be possible, so it's not like we don't want people to stay.

EDIT:

For the record, I really do mean what I wrote above that I do not condemn the goons. Theirs is one mode of playing, for the attainment of their specific goals, and half the point of Haven is to not let the game pass value judgements on its players. It wouldn't be Haven if there weren't conflicts of interest between the players -- the point of all the above is that it is our aim not to eliminate such conflicts, but rather to make them interesting elements of gameplay (for both sides, that is -- for the goons as well), and that there are many things lacking right now to make them truly interesting and fun rather than obnoxious, one-sided and frustrating. To re-emphasize: though it obviously frustrates people, Jorb and I must let these things happen so that we can study them and conclude how to improve on them.

Delamore actually told me of the raid in advance and, in the interest of science, I went along and observed it. It was really cool watching the Goon armada sail along the rivers and then advancing through the forest. Watching the actual raid was a bit more painful since I dislike seeing things being destroyed (and I do feel pity with the people being trampled), but it was interesting and I learned a lot from it. Usually, it is Jorb coming along on the raids, but he's absent for this night, so Delamore asked me instead; I've only accompanied them on one raid previously (on the old map), so it was quite useful for me to be able to watch another one.

If it sounds like we're exploiting the players by letting frustrating events happen to them and then observing their reactions: Yes, we are. You're alpha testers. ;)

[ryft]

'course, now that I say that, I'm gonna find my character dead in a ditch somewhere three supergrids from where I logged off.

That's what happened to us. We had hardly said anything to or about the Goons publicly and one of our townspeople logged in to find them raiding our village. That's just how it happens. The way they may have found our village is Xanadu ran into it while looking for Chernobyl and posted the coordinates on their forum (god know whys). Delamore got access to their forums illegitimately and could have possibly seen that post. It probably doesn't help that our village was in the same supergrid as Chernobyl (I think) but we moved there and had it set up before we knew where they were.

[Agarrett]

The post-Wayneville clean-up is one of the most mind-numbingly counter-productive things I've ever done.

I've never heard about it as I only joined a week and a half ago. Can anyone enlighten me?

[Onionfighter]

Enlighten yourself: http://www.havenandhearth.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2270

[Agarrett]

I did

[Agarrett]

In a completely non-offensive way, I think you should change

on my haven and hearth?

to

on my MMO?

Since they are virtually everywhere.

[btaylor]

Delamore is lying through his teeth about those stats. I guess I shouldn't really be telling anyone that, but since he tells everyone that he's got exploited stats that we don't correct, it cannot really be helped that I have to deny it at some point. I have taken for granted not to take a word of what he says at face value. Delamore is a grand master at manipulation of public opinion.

It's all coming together now. Gaiadin is trying to incite a riot between the goons and the hearthlings. Personally the goons have never done anything to me. I for one will not fight for Gaiadin's personal army in his battle against the wrongs he has suffered from Delamore. Seems like a problem the two just need to sort out between themselves.

[ryft]

This isn't only about Gaiadin. The Goons have caused drama for other people. It's just that me, Gaiadin, and our other few villagers put a lot of effort into our village and spent time making it really great. Even though were were pretty secretive, we had some high quality stuff and worked really well together. Weeks of work that they take an hour to destroy.

Oh and response to Loftar: I realize policing a game is tough work and nothing against you and Jorb, but it does really take more than two people to properly run a community oriented online game. That's why most games have separate teams... development, art, support, etc. It may be a rough job for you two if this game increases in players.

[Soreum]

In a completely non-offensive way, I think you should change

on my haven and hearth?

to

on my MMO?

Since they are virtually everywhere.

http://www.reddit.com/r/gaming/comments ... h_capital/

Goonsquad is the most effective terrorist organization in the world, hands down. It's only a matter of time before they care to do the same here.

[ryft]

In a completely non-offensive way, I think you should change

on my haven and hearth?

to

on my MMO?

Since they are virtually everywhere.

Enjoy.