Other games you play or have played.

[Chakravanti]

Basically the same. Some aspects are unique to each, like disciplines to vampires, magic to mage, Gnosis to Werewolf.

It is simple, clean, elegant and extremely adaptable.

mechanically there's practically nothing there.

These. I prefer it because I hate mechanics. They're their to help me tell a story and nothing more. I often discard dice rolls in favor of arbitrarily declaring that certain shit happens when I don't want to leave certain aspects to chance.

Also, nWoD sucks dig donkey dick. Some of the new trads were nice but ultimately the whole package was a piece of shit that was just done to sell a whole new slew of books. But that's nothing we haven't seen done before by other gaming companies . I personally will never storytell in it.

[Leusoj]

Used to play lots of MMOs - Myths of Soma, Ragnarok, MU, Maplestory, etc.

Currently playing Haven and Hearth and Dragon Age Origins Offline (2nd play-through).

Just finished Mass Effect 2 in Xbox 360, thinking of replaying ME1 and getting a 100% savegame for 2.

[theTrav]

It is simple, clean, elegant and extremely adaptable.

mechanically there's practically nothing there.

These. I prefer it because I hate mechanics. They're their to help me tell a story and nothing more. I often discard dice rolls in favor of arbitrarily declaring that certain shit happens when I don't want to leave certain aspects to chance.

In that case it basically comes down to the type of game you enjoy playing/running.

White wolf supports a game where the GM wants to tell a story and the players get to be involved to some degree.

I prefer systems where the GM creates a world and then the players inhabit the world which they can interact with in ways that are consistent for the laws of that universe.

Once the GM has created the world it's my opinion that their job changes from world builder to impartial referee. He should not be trying to encourage the players to go down a certain path, nor to prevent the players from doing stupid stuff that gets them killed.

[burgingham]

Vampire The Masquerade -- and most WoD games use basically the same, right? -- has the best basic skill system I have ever seen for pen & paper RPGS. It is simple, clean, elegant and extremely adaptable.

http://www.sjgames.com/GURPS/

[Chakravanti]

Once the GM has created the world it's my opinion that their job changes from world builder to impartial referee. He should not be trying to encourage the players to go down a certain path, nor to prevent the players from doing stupid stuff that gets them killed.

Have you ever actually sat in that seat??

[Winterbrass]

Once the GM has created the world it's my opinion that their job changes from world builder to impartial referee. He should not be trying to encourage the players to go down a certain path, nor to prevent the players from doing stupid stuff that gets them killed.

Have you ever actually sat in that seat??

I have, and I agree (to a degree). My gaming group have all sat in that seat, and when we run adventures, sometimes it ends in a party wipe. Regardless of whether it does or not, we have a great time. Reason being is that we're there to have a good time with friends while helping tell a story. If we do something stupid, we realize that we made that choice. Sometimes we do things that we, as players, realize are stupid but from the characters' points of view, are not. It's called 'roleplaying'. The 'heroes' aren't special because they're PCs, or at all, really. They're just people in a world that has plenty of people.

On the the flipside, a good DM will have a story that he or she wants told and will get the players to help them. Railroading is something that shouldn't be used often, but when the DM feels that it's necessary, good players will go along with it, and temporarily retire characters that would have no legitimate reason to continue on the adventure with the rest of the party.

[Chakravanti]

It's a delicate balance but I just can't see having a good experience in a game without a plot.

[Winterbrass]

It's a delicate balance but I just can't see having a good experience in a game without a plot.

It's not the absence of a plot. It's the presence of multiple plots. If you have twenty different 'plots' that you could follow, and the other nineteen will play out naturally if not interfered with, then it gives the player choice, which is a damn sight better than railroading. Otherwise, you're playing a glorified, slightly more detailed dungeon romp.

[theTrav]

Have you ever actually sat in that seat??

Yep, I've dmed before a few times. mostly DnD 3.5 & 4.0, I've also ran a series of shadowrun games (4 I think)

It's a delicate balance but I just can't see having a good experience in a game without a plot.

Allowing the players to determine the path taken within the world does not preclude the existence of a plot. It simply means that the plot is emergent rather than dictated at the outset.

The DM is still responsible for creating interesting personalities within the world and giving them goals which they work to achieve. It's just important that failure be a real possibility for the players so that they can make judgements as to which actions will and will not support their goals and have a feeling of empowerment to affect the story in a meaningful way.

If you're interested, here's two threads on the 1st ed campaign I'm currently in (as a player)
http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=485065 - from the players perspective, scarymother is our cleric
http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=464723 - from the DM's perspective, sablewyvern is our DM, and the best DM I've ever encountered BY FAR. I haven't read his thread though, we've been instructed to stay out of it because it's spoiler heavy.

If you look into first ed to any degree of depth one of the things you'll probably notice is that it leaves a LOT of stuff up to DM interpretation and interaction, which gives much of the white wolf games flexibility, however the things it gives the players to work with are pretty solid mechanics that they can make reasoned decisions about.

[Winterbrass]

If you look into first ed to any degree of depth one of the things you'll probably notice is that it leaves a LOT of stuff up to DM interpretation and interaction, which gives much of the white wolf games flexibility, however the things it gives the players to work with are pretty solid mechanics that they can make reasoned decisions about.

That's very much like the custom-developed system that I play in, with the caveat that our system accurately models damage to players and NPCs alike. I can attempt to go for a throatshot with my bow, but so can NPCs. The DM tries very hard to kill us in combat with our opponents, and sometimes, we have deaths or casualties. My mage was rendered a quadripalegic and the monk's knees were both broken in the same combat, and the party had the dilemma of who to heal as magic is dangerous and can lead to the death of the wielder. Bonus is that there are no spell slots. Penalty is that on a 'fumble', the character has to successfully roll against their willpower or die.

On the other hand, the same applies to NPCs as well. A gnome mage's head literally popped because he fumbled twice in a row, and the DM wouldn't have been able to gloss over that because we can read the dice just as well as he can - there are no 'secret' rolls. We rely on honesty and roleplaying skill to deal with failed rolls.

Randomness is fun, especially when it applies to both sides.