Iron, Noobs, and Raiders.

[exewu]

The time it would take you to produce 5 chests of chanterelles is the same amount of time (estimated) that a new player would take to produce me one chest of chanterelles. I see no reason to pay you at a higher hourly rate than him, given that I don't need chants and will probably have to dump them or give them away, or worse yet to store them. Player time in game is the real valuable commodity here, not q of chanterelles, or metal or cave bulbs. The deciding factor is how long you are willing to play to get the token pay-off of fifteen virtual bars of metal.

That's not how it works.
The metal seller has 2 options, either go forage the items he wants himself, or trade metal for it. The moment it's more of a hassle to go forage the items himself is when the miner is going to stop offering his goods for sale. He doesn't care how long it takes his trading partner to collect those items. You also need to take into account that there are a lot of fixed costs with mine ownership. You need to build/maintain the wall, combatstats for protection and supplies like food/tea. And of course the biggest one, fear of being raided/killed by venturing to far out/giving away your position.

Also I can't believe there's no mines left (hint, there are still mines left) and with the auth changes there's going to be more of them available for grabs soon I bet.

[Lothaudus]

Part of the issue I am thinking is that it is easier for an iron trader to go out and fill two chests and a boat with clay than it is for them to travel all the way to you or to some trading spot, with the iron you want, in order to pick up a similar boat with loaded chests that you have supplied. If they know of any decent clay deposit closer than the trading place it immediately is not worth the trouble, especially if they are being cautious about revealing the location of their mine.

Never underestimate the ability to deliver. Clay spots exhaust very quickly when you're walling building and having someone who's able to drop off a bunch for you saves you some time and a lot of un-fun brick grinding. It all depends on what you want to spend your time doing.

Off hand I know of only two things that an iron trader would want from a bronze miner, and that would be tin tankards - a very low ticket item, and bronze armour and weapons which they very likely don't want at all since they can make steel armor and weapons if they have patience.

Q affects armour and swords in damage delivered and taken. High Q Bronze equipment can actually be better than Steel.

Either this is deliberate on the devs part because they want iron scarcity to become a cause for war

I suspect this. Remove the drama and battles and the game gets boring rather quickly. Lack of "late-game" content is a huge issue. What do you do once your wall is up, your mansion is built, your crops at a high level and you have all the cows you'll ever need?

My suggestion is for there to be several items that can only be made of copper, of tin and of bronze so that someone with a tin mine has more to offer than just tankards. For example we currently use clay jars to make ink and rustroot elixer. How about adding a copper vessel necessary to make some other useful potion? How about a bronze comb or strigil or epergne? How about bronze funerary figures to add value to tombstones? A copper puzzle charm that raises intelligence? A copper loom heddle that increases the durability of looms stored outside, or perhaps increases the quality of the cloth? A bunch of stuff like this would put more power into the hands of people with other types of mines, and I think that would be a good thing.

These are some good ideas and the game does need more stuff in general.

For anyone who has persevered to the end of this post, I am still interested in what you think is a fair price for iron.

Depends entirely on who you're talking to. You're probably used to a system of commerce where you walk into a store and some guy tells you "That TV is $1,299 because it has a built in HD tuner, that one over there is 1,499 but comes with theatre quality surround sound", you pick one and purchase. Once upon a time, in ye olde days of yore, people used to barter. And what you bartered for what depended on who you were talking to.

I can tell you now that Sodom and the GOONS (along with a few other less well-known groups) are the better, more experienced players in this game who have not only done a lot of trading but fit squarely into that "They can get and do have everything they really need" category. Selling to them is harder (they usually want big / rarer stuff and lots of it) but certainly not impossible. They're the people you're talking about ("What can you trade that I can't produce???") but they're certainly not alone.

We've done plenty of trades with locals on our grid that haven't been done at the - what you've been calling - "exorbitant" prices you see. It really just depends on the community you're dealing with and what you've got to trade - then what the other side has and how much each side wants what the other side has.

It's perfectly fair and valid to tell someone their prices are too steep for you and to look elsewhere (A big problem with a lot of the whiners on the forums of late is they just aren't looking).

I suppose I would be tempted to pay a lot for a chest of pre-buttered cave bulbs, but my desire for cave bulbs has not actually been enough to motivate me to go explore the cave nearest to me... I suppose my logic is that isn't psyche mainly only good for making jewelry, and that means having gold and silver? And never having experienced the benefits of either metal, I haven't yet worked out why a player would actually want them.

Jewelry adds stats and skill bonuses. High Q jewelry adds quite significant bonuses. And hey, you may not want Cave Bulbs but if the guy you're buying from wants them and you can get them for him, then it's useful.

One reason for the differences here has to be that you are a very serious player and I am not.

Yes, sabinati is. And if you find you can't deal with those people because they want too much or whatever, well, look for the less experienced ones. And I don't necessarily mean on the forums either. There are plenty of them around. Though quite a few of them speak Russian now.

And then my next question is, how many iron mine owners are like me, not hugely motivated to stockpile stuff and how many of them are like you, rationally maximizing your game wealth and lp.

We own a mine. I don't maximize my lp and game wealth.

Now I wonder what you would consider to be worth five chests of chantrelles if you had to collect them yourself and couldn't trade for them? (I'm scaling up from one chest to five chests on the assumption that your per*exp is enough to find chants at five times the rate of the average wannabe iron purchaser.)

I coulnd't care less about chantrelles right now but I tell you what... If you could get me two barrels of milk at any Q I'd give you 6 bars of Cast... A chest of Deer Dogs would be quite good right now too. I'd maybe throw in more cast if I like you and maybe throw in some metal tools as well if I really like you. Then maybe invite you round to my place for dinner and...

Ok, so maybe not that last bit.

I know 15 bars was for 5 chests. But since I don't want chanterelles I am converting it into the amount of time you are willing to spend. Is that not reasonable?

The time it would take you to produce 5 chests of chanterelles is the same amount of time (estimated) that a new player would take to produce me one chest of chanterelles. I see no reason to pay you at a higher hourly rate than him, given that I don't need chants and will probably have to dump them or give them away, or worse yet to store them.

Not quite. Finding an Iron mine opens you to great risk. Meaning you now, more than ever, have to protect it. That means Brick Walls. Miners also need Tea to ensure good ongoing mining and food for hunger so they don't starve to death in the mines. The Iron mine also had to be found which means a considerable investment in time to get sufficient perception and exploration, locate a mine, claim it, build it and setup to mine it. The mine also has to especially mine and store the metal you want for the trade. Miners usually don't mine more than they need to.

Chantrelles meanwhile, involve you wandering around the country-side aimlessly for a few hours. Pay is based on the skill and effort involved. Collecting Chantrelles is low-skilled worked.

That new player considers his time as precious as you consider yours

... and how fantastic will it be when you have a nice Scythe to harvest that farm of yours? And one Scythe is a life-time investment! They never break! You never need another! With just one Scythe you cut your harvesting time down to mere seconds, instead of... slightly more seconds. An entire crop goes in a jiffy! With a brand new metal Scythe fresh out of the mine, you'll never look back.

... and have I got some exciting news for all you pavers out there! Ever chipped stone with a Pickaxe? If you haven't, you need to get in on this action. Tired of going AFK for five minutes while your inventory fills with stone? Well my friends, with a shiney pickaxe from Sabinati & Co. your AFKing days are over! You'll pave that plot in next to no-time. No more AFK because you won't need to AFK. Stone chipping with a pickaxe is that fast. And this too, is a life-time investment you can have. Our top quality items never break and never need repairs!

Now folks, ask yourself this question: Have you had the taste of sausage? Pure, sweet sausage sliding into your mouth and down the back of your throat. Mmmmmm... Taste that meat package. Ever killed a herd of Deer, Hunted Boar or slaughtered a field of Cows and wandered how you're going to get all that shit home? Well folks, if you grab yourselves a meat-grinder made out of just a few metal bars, you'll never worry again! One meat grinder is a grinder for life! You'll have all the sausage you can eat. Slaughter a pack of cows, stuff that meat into the grinder and you'll be bringing sausage home for your friends and family! Your friends will love the taste of your sausage and they won't be able to get enough! As with all our high quality metal products, meat grinders never break and are an investment for life.

Hurry, while stocks last.

[exewu]

I coulnd't care less about chantrelles right now but I tell you what... If you could get me two barrels of milk at any Q I'd give you 6 bars of Cast... A chest of Deer Dogs would be quite good right now too. I'd maybe throw in more cast if I like you and maybe throw in some metal tools as well if I really like you. Then maybe invite you round to my place for dinner and...

Ok, so maybe not that last bit.

Hmm you can put milk in barrels? I've been doing it wrong all this time ...
Also in what way is getting 200l of milk easier than 5 chests of chanterelles? Perhaps it's because I'm in a forrest but I find way more than 5 chanterelles per clover.

[Lothaudus]

Hmm you can put milk in barrels? I've been doing it wrong all this time ...

Trust me, I feel your pain.

Also in what way is getting 200l of milk easier than 5 chests of chanterelles? Perhaps it's because I'm in a forrest but I find way more than 5 chanterelles per clover.

Who said anything about easier? That's just the price I'm willing to pay at this moment. If the market doesn't have anyone willing to accept my price and I can't get a deal or it seems a little unreasonable and I can't get the quantity I want quickly enough, I might look at offering more. Such is the nature of trade.

[sabinati]

15 bars was for 5 chests

I know 15 bars was for 5 chests. But since I don't want chanterelles I am converting it into the amount of time you are willing to spend. Is that not reasonable?

The time it would take you to produce 5 chests of chanterelles is the same amount of time (estimated) that a new player would take to produce me one chest of chanterelles. I see no reason to pay you at a higher hourly rate than him, given that I don't need chants and will probably have to dump them or give them away, or worse yet to store them. Player time in game is the real valuable commodity here, not q of chanterelles, or metal or cave bulbs. The deciding factor is how long you are willing to play to get the token pay-off of fifteen virtual bars of metal.

That new player considers his time as precious as you consider yours and probably more so, if you consider it as % of time spent in game. I am guessing that if you feel you are not wasting your time to get 15 bars of metal for say, three hours of work, he is going to feel the same. If I try to make him work for fifteen hours to get those fifteen bars of metal, is it not likely that he will think I am a gouging jerk and refuse the bargain? It's not like he has to play the game. He's only going to play it as long as it is fun.

I'm trying to figure out how to set things up so that he doesn't say, "Aw shit, this ain't worth it." and quit. It's very possible that you or some dedicated players would feel that setting things up so that he quits is a desireable outcome, of course, so you may not understand my motivation. But I am trying to figure out a way to make it is worth it to me to trade iron, and worth it for the iron buyer to trade with me.

no no no it doesn't matter who collects the chants. 12 chants are worth 1 bar of metal. imo.

[Zamte]

To be a good trader and get what you want you will have to stop thinking from your perspective and think from theirs.

Collecting chantrelles is not fun, it's not beneficial, it's not anything they want. They could be down in the mine collecting iron for a bigger return on their time, or supporting those in the village who are already doing so. They could be grinding LP, building roads or walls, or any number of things with a long term impact. Collecting chantrelles takes a lot of time, is luck related, may involve high perception and exploration which they may or may not need or have, and is just in general boring and inefficient.

You can make a killing, in the real world, and in nearly any game, by capitalizing on easy things that are beneath people further up in the game. There are always tasks you can do which other people don't feel like doing but require the end result of, which will make you plenty of money, or get you plenty of goods.

I also think you're exaggerating a bit on the prices. My neighbor build a brick wall with all four corner posts and a gate with the metal he got from trading two chests of cavebulbs. That is all the wrought for the cornerposts and enough wrought to make the steel for the gate himself.

Another thing to consider is, iron is super valuable to you because you don't have it, but much like everything else in this game, is just another thing those people who do have. You can go down into the mine with a cart and a boat and six chests and your inventory, and pull out enough ore in under an hour to make 40 bars of cast iron. It's not hard, and it doesn't take long. Wrought and Steel are a bit more convoluted, but still not hard. This is why they tend to be willing to trade with you for things they can get, but will take you longer. They're trading a small period of their time for a decent period of yours, that's from their perspective. However from yours, you're trading a bit of time for something you couldn't otherwise get. It's no big deal for them and a great deal for you.

[Elirian]

12 chants are worth 1 bar of metal. imo.

You can go down into the mine with a cart and a boat and six chests and your inventory, and pull out enough ore in under an hour to make 40 bars of cast iron. It's not hard, and it doesn't take long.

So 1 hours worth of iron = 480 chantrelles?

How long would it take you to collect 480 chantrelles?

It's a cornerstone of MMO design that time is the only resource. If you could collect one chant a minute, that means iron owners regard their time as eight times more valuable than that of non iron owners. Or in other words, they're hoarding iron HARD, if they would rather go out and inefficiently spend eight hours collecting chants than go mining for two, or even four hours and pay a fairer price. Looks like the complainers have a point.

Also looks like the first village that controls an iron mine and spends their time rationally will make an absolute killing. Provided they can find enough trading partners, they can turn every hour spent in the mine into four hours worth of resource gain by halving their price. They will obviously be the only people anyone trades with, hell, from the sounds of how inefficiently people are spending their time, even other iron miners might start farming chants and bulbs for them. So that means as long as people can get to them, they'll have enough trading partners. Which means they'll never need to gather/craft any product other than iron again. With iron being so much more valuable than anything else... they'll basically be pulling ahead at four times the speed of anyone else, until someone else enters the market competitively.

Which is where the drawback is. If you actually start charging rationally for your time and product, you risk devaluing it, since, as has been pointed out, it's actually very easy to gather. So I guess any time wasted gathering your own herbs/crops/beer/silk/bricks/whatever, rather than the more valuable and efficient iron, could be considered 'an investment in the future'

Still, it'll be interesting to see if anyone decides to capitalize.

Of course if no one in the village needs to gather any resource except iron even when trading at an 8:1 ratio, you probably have a balance problem. Not too many people are going to enjoy an mmo where their time is worth eight times less than someone elses. Easily fixed by playing with supply and demand numbers of course.

[Potjeh]

Time spent collecting chants isn't just time spent collecting chants. You do it as a side-labour while you're hunting, exploring or simply walking from point A to point B. So it's not really fair to count chant-collecting as a full-time job. That, and there's supply and demand. There's almost zero demand for chants, most people find more than they can eat. Food in general is not really in demand, ever since the hunger update. Notable exceptions are cave bulbs, and I guess mussels now.

[Elirian]

Time spent collecting chants isn't just time spent collecting chants. You do it as a side-labour while you're hunting, exploring or simply walking from point A to point B. So it's not really fair to count chant-collecting as a full-time job. That, and there's supply and demand. There's almost zero demand for chants, most people find more than they can eat. Food in general is not really in demand, ever since the hunger update. Notable exceptions are cave bulbs, and I guess mussels now.

Considering that hunting, exploring, or walking from a to b generate no resources of any value, I'd respectfully disagree. When you're collecting resources, you're looking for things of value. You might see it as picking up a chant while you were doing something else, but the reality is that you were getting something else done while picking up chants. The only exception that occurs to me is if you are walking from a to b in order to trade at a profit.

[Potjeh]

Hunting is *the* most valuable job, as it gives a lot more LP than anything else (especially mining, which has the crappiest LP/time ratio ever). And walking from point A to point B is a part of the cost of labour. Say, you're going half a sg away to collect some HQ clay - isn't the time spent going to the resource spot worth *something* to you? If not, why do so many people whine when server crash forces them to restart a travel from their hearth? And how does exploring have no value? Do you think good intel is worthless? If that's the case, please give me the positions of all resource spots you found and I'll give you one chantrelle. Great deal, you get something which has value for something with zero value!