Why aren't there more games like H&H?

[Potjeh]

Consoles, innovative? What planet are you from? Vast majority of innovation takes place in the no-budget group of games, and there's virtually zero overlap between that group and console games. The bigger a budget a game has, the more conservative it has to be. As it is now, Jorb and Loftar stand only to lose their own manhours if H&H goes belly-up (and I'd argue that they can't lose that either, because H&H is going to look awesome on their resumes no matter what happens). If there were investors breathing down their necks, they'd lose almost all creative control because investors wouldn't let them take any avoidable risks.

[Brickbreaker]

Consoles, innovative? What planet are you from?

Little Big Planet, Heavy Rain, Flower(PS3), Scribblenaughts, Mass Effect, Super Mario Galxy etc...?
Spore is PC but as in consoles I truly meant not MMO.

You were right about the smaller developers making more innovative games and are more risky, but in the world of MMO's the BIG companies just don't seem
to be up for it.

[sabinati]

Consoles, innovative? What planet are you from? Vast majority of innovation takes place in the no-budget group of games, and there's virtually zero overlap between that group and console games. The bigger a budget a game has, the more conservative it has to be. As it is now, Jorb and Loftar stand only to lose their own manhours if H&H goes belly-up (and I'd argue that they can't lose that either, because H&H is going to look awesome on their resumes no matter what happens). If there were investors breathing down their necks, they'd lose almost all creative control because investors wouldn't let them take any avoidable risks.

well it's not quite "no-budget" but there are a lot of low budget indie games on the currunt crop of consoles (wii, ps3, 360)

edit: of course i am referring to wii ware, xbox live arcade and the playstation store, not the regular retail distribution channels

[Potjeh]

I haven't played any of the games you listed, but I'll bet 100$ the same thing was done before on an indie PC game, only it wasn't polished and marketed enough to achieve success.

As for downloadable indie games on consoles, sure, but I bet another 100$ that >95% of indie games are still made for PCs.

[sabinati]

probably closer to 99%, it's still very much an emerging market and like i said, not exactly "no budget" (wii ware development kit costs $2000), but it's a step in the right direction.

[Potjeh]

I bet these dev kits come with a metric ton of legalese BS, so I don't see consoles taking a significant share of indie development any time soon.

[DatOneGuy]

What I meant is that they can take the chance at all.

Korean MMOs are the same thing JRPGs were.

Attempt formula #1:
Fail? Don't try again
Success? Mass produce games targeted towards specific things, market it the same time each way (repeatable marketing), make subsidiaries to be able to sell multiple games that are the same thing and still receive as much money. find as many ways as possible to get as much money per workhour you can out of it.

There will never be an attempt at a different formula unless someone NON-Korean drops something game breaking. Why would there be? Clones make money, innovation doesn't.

By the way I also meant SOLELY commercial. Of course indie is the most innovative, it always will be. Behind every innovative commercial game is at least one indie game that did the same thing over a year ago.


There are enough genres to take risks to some extent merging them, small risks usually, sometimes bigger ones, and yes most games are the same deal over and over again, but there's enough games and enough money made from those games by the same few companies that every few years they can attempt one or two innovative tiles, if they lose they ose, if they win, repeat until you've made so many clones it's a genre.

MMOs really can't take that risk, all of their profits are multiplied by a lot more than the others, they need to keep a 'decent' reputation for their game (not necessarily the company), have the fun game, addicting (most important part), repeatable, and make it easy to produce no content at the lowest costs possible (Draw up a few sprites and background pictures and call it a 'new area'). There's about as little coding in expansion of Korean MMOs as there will be anywhere, which saves a lot of money.

I'd love to see someone attempt something similar to HnH in a different time frame, just to see how it would turn out, would be cool.

[Brickbreaker]

You guys talk about risk, but there is virtually very little risk involved now. It has been done and proven it CAN work (EVE Online), all the sandbox genre now needs is good investment and a polished game. Because imo quality is the only barrier that stops mmo gamers from wanting a game like this (just read my OP). THIS is the sort of game many players are looking for and if it's done just perfectly sandbox might start having it's own 'Korean Clones'.

I'd love to see someone attempt something similar to HnH in a different time frame, just to see how it would turn out, would be cool.

I'd like to see something similar to H&H but on an international level, I hate the restrictions to Europe only.

[jorb]

I believe the old dogmas will always fail, precisely because they are old and dogmatic. The world always has a need for innovation, and the last word has never been said. Sail around the world? Surely you will fall over the edge. *Everyone* knows that...

This game is already profitable. It has given me more simple, earthly joy than any other project I have ever been a part of. I do not build in order to have clients, I have clients in order to build.

If we ever grow old, please leave this place immediately, and burn the bridges.

[Sidran]

I agree with jorb.. tho I am inpatient and frustrated as OP, concerning current industry standing.

We are currently in a phase of violent and quantitative widening of game market. To be able to cater to huge new/outsider masses, creativity and innovation were replaced with success recipes and harsh market evaluations. We are currently paying the price for that widening. But, when we reach quantitative saturation (almost everyone plays something), making space for quality, creativity and innovation will be inevitable. Not on a large scale ofc, but observable compared to now. Pareto principle will hopefully take care of that.
This is my wishful thinking.. as I hate manga, sex and aggression driven infantile fantasies, idiotic quests, triviality, tit warriors (list goes on and on and on....) to high heaven. Or more precisely, I hate lack of anything else. Just for example do a search for "adult mmo" and 95% of hits will be sex related. Is there anything else other than sex that makes adults what they are? Maybe not, if you ask current market..